What was the purse between Jack Johnson vs Jim Battling Johnson in 1913?

Further to this, on page 241 of Moyle's book he states that Jim Barry the boxer said McIntosh tied up both McVey and Langford to the extent that they were unable to leave the country without his say so.Barry states for a coloured fighter to enter the country to fight for him McIntosh had to put up a bond of $1000 for six months,and that as long as McIntosh cared to renew the bond the boxer must remain in the country.Barry further said that McIntosh had told him that if he ever got Johnson back in Australia he would keep him there as long as he was able to draw a gate. Barry is quoted in the book as saying"I have advised Johnson of his, [McIntosh's]intentions.There is not a chance of him going there unless McIntosh posts his money in an American bank,and also signs a contract that he can leave as soon as his three fights are over."This was printed in an Australian newspaper on September the 14th 1911
.I believe this explains why Johnson wanted the forfeit deposited in a US bank.I aslo believe it shows that Johnson was justified in his concerns and that, far form showing he did not want the fights,it demonstrates the lengths he was prepared to go to enable them to happen.

 

It could also be a case of Johnson setting terms that he would expect to be turned down or just to put up another roadblock. An earlier sticking point for Johnson was there had to be a $15,000 forfeit. So McIntosh met that. Now the forfeit had to be posted in America. A year earlier Johnson had turned down a $25,000 offer from McIntosh to face Langford, saying his price was $30,000 (this one is mentioned in Pollack's book). Now a year later he was agreeing to fight Langford and McVea for $25,000 each!

I can understand Johnson wanting to cover himself regarding the financials, however if he was really concerned that McIntosh would rip him off or that he would somehow be prevented from leaving Australia (something I've never heard of happening to Johnson, Langford, McVea or any other black fighter who fought there) why would he seriously entertain any of those offers anyway? Moyle does also point out that Barry himself had an axe to grind with McIntosh.

 

I find it rather odd that Johnson could defend against Battling Jim Johnson but not Langford. If race was the issue preventing the fight than wouldn't that also prevent Johnson from facing Battling Jim Johnson?

And wouldn't it have prevented Burns from defending against Johnson in the first place?

 

I don't believe Johnson ever said he'd accept a forfeit posted in Australia. His demand was always that the money be deposited with someone he trusted in the US, and McIntosh had agreed to that well before he suddenly pulled the plug on the deal.

 

First of all the total purse money and expenses for Johnson to fight both Langford and McVey were $45,000 purses,$5000 expenses plus 4 round trip tickets. Johnson was offered fight with McVey in Australia byMcIntosh for $30,00 he cabled back he would accept it provided the money was deposited in a reliable bank in the US before he left Chicago for Australia,this was on January 6th 1912 so there was nothing new about this practise or Johnson desiring it. Johnson said he wanted the forfeit very early on his his negotiations to fight Langford and Mcvey his only alteration was asking for it to be posted in a US bank instead of with a Sydney newpspaper of McIntosh's choosing,and given my last post and the information it contains I've demonstrated that it was quite reasonable for him to do so.

Duke Mullins estimated that all Langford earned in his tour of Australia was £3000 McIntosh was making a fortune but Langford and McVey were not seeing much of that
Johnson said he was ready to defend against McVey in Sydney on or about Easter Monday1912 for a purse of$30,00 plus travelling expenses of$5000 this was printed in Australian newspapers on Nov 30th 1911.McVey had just beaten Langford so it would have drawn a good crowd Australia.Religious leaders immediately began a crusade to get the fight banned.

"Unfortunately Sydney's clergy immediately began agitating for the prohibition of the scheduled McVey v Johnson fight.Fearinga repeat of what had taken place in England businessman interested in the fight engaged legal counsel to test the contests legality; to ensure that they woul not be investing money in an event that would not take place.
Once again it appeared another potential Johnson fight might be derailed by opposition"
Pollack page580.at the same time as these potential fights were being haggled over Jack Curley offered Johnson $30,000 to defend against Flynn in July1912.Now Johnson learned that as a result of all the opposition to the fight being held inSydney.johnson received notice that the fight would be held in France the fight to be held in June instead of the original dated the same time.Between the two a Flynn fight made more business sense because it seemed to involve less risk for the same money.Pollack page580 Also Johnson would not have to leave the US to fight Flynn and defend against McVey in Paris where Sam was a favourite.

Throughout our debate you have quoted readily from Clay Moyle's book on Langford ,now I have done so and the information I have provided doesn't suit your case you want to pooh pooh it and disregard it! You can't have it both ways!You can't cherry pick which bits suit you and ignore those that contradict or weaken your argument!

 

I don't think you have been flowing the debates very closely.lol

 

Your argument throughout has been that Johnson accepted an offer to fight Langford. You have also in the past dismissed offers which were for less than his $30,000 per fight demand. Well, if he made an additional demand (and it was an additional demand) not originally covered in that offer, then he hadn't really accepted had he? They were still haggling over the terms. Then McIntosh called it all off while they were still negotiating. The dispute over the forfeit was never resolved and Johnson never signed.

Throughout Johnson's reign you'll find reports of him "accepting" offers to fight someone or other in fights that never took place. It doesn't mean anything until he signs on the dotted line and even then (as seen with the NSC offer), it was still no guarantee he'd go through with it. We both know that Johnson's stated intentions and what he actually did were not always the same.

Andrews, McIntosh's negotiator in America, said that Johnson had been using McIntosh's failure to post a forfeit to bind the match as an excuse not to sign. So McIntosh posted it, and only then did Johnson specify that the forfeit had to be posted in America. An additional demand. It fits in with McIntosh's comment that whenever Johnson was close to signing, he would stall or make some other demand and would never commit. He said Johnson admitted to him that Langford was "too tough a game to tackle" and he was wasting his time trying to make the fight because "that little black smoke has a chance to win against anyone". Duke Mullins was also of the opinion that Johnson was not keen to face Langford again.

 

I have no doubt that Johnson was in no rush to fight Langford that he would rather face Flynn in the States than go halfway around the world to fight a man a lot more dangerous for the same money .This does not mean he would NOT face Langford if push came to shove.
Langford himself said that if McIntosh offered Johnson $30,000 to fight him he thought he would do so."If Johnson can get Hugh McIntosh to agree to give him $30,000,he''ll probably agree to meet me." Moyle page 213.
Duke Mullins also said this,"that Sam had an even money chance with Johnson before Jack became champion,but that as Sam's weight increased and he lost some of his speed,he would have had a tough time dethroning Johnson.By Mullins way of thinking Johnson was the geatest fighter the world had ever known" Page258Moyle .Mullins seconded both men in Australia and was close friends with both, so maybe he knew what he was talking about?
I guess the difference between us is how we interpret these quotes? I would like to state I consider Langford the greater fighter P4P and easily top 5 in that department.

 

I don't believe Johnson feared Langford (or anyone else for that matter). He'd had nothing for a long time and now he was out to make as much as he could with as little risk as possible. I think he could have made the Langford fight if he'd really wanted to, but there was always an easier option for comparable or more money. Why risk Langford when you can beat up Fireman Jim for the same money? Moyle also quotes someone (can't find the page right now) saying that Johnson and Langford "hated each other like poison" so perhaps that also played a part in all this?

Yes Mullins knew and liked both men, so I'd take his opinions on them as sincere with no axe to grind. He's right that Sam had started to lose his edge by about 1912. He was out of shape more often and losing a few more.

I've said before that Johnson would be the favourite whenever they fought because of his size and style, however Sam would be a dangerous underdog.

We agree on the facts, just the interpretation of some of them I think.

 

A pleasure!