What was the reaction to Leonard fighting Donny Lalonde?

Yes. Many felt Lalonde was too big and hit harder. Others felt Leonard was simply too skilled. There was a mild buzz leading up it. The result was a good one for Leonard.

 

Having titles for two different divisions on the line in one fight was ridiculous (and I'm sure it broke a few rules) when Lalonde had to weigh in below 168. Neither man was even ranked at 168 at the time. That was probably an attempt by Leonard to outdo Tommy Hearns and win titles in five divisions. Hearns had recently won his fourth world title.

It was actually one of Leonard's better comeback performances. Lalonde put up a heck of a fight before running out of steam in the second half.

 

In the UK, Leonard got heat for making Lalonde step down to 168, so he could one up Tommy.

And there was surprise Leonard got caught. Lalonde was considered limited.

 

I remember it at the time as a bit of an eye-roller, especially since Lalonde had to dry out to 168. It was thought of then as a bit of cherry-picking, and rightly so. The fact that Lalonde knocked him down and buzzed him late in the fight made many sit up a bit and wonder how much Leonard had left though.

 

Lalonde had to make the super middleweight limit to fight for the super middleweight title.

And, had Lalonde won, he'd have been a two-divisional titlist as well.

Something tells me if the WBC decided to recognize the Super Middleweight class in 1985 instead of 1988, and Marvin Hagler fought Michael Spinks that year at 168 for the Super Middleweight and Light Heavyweight Titles, it would've been viewed much more favorably.

Having one champ moving up and one coming down to crown a new king in a division was cool. Certainly made more sense than having failed challengers in other weight classes (Murray Sutherland) fighting for it.

And there have been champions in multiple divisions throughout the history of boxing.

Finally, as I just pointed out, Hearns (who was knocked out in three rounds in his previous outing) was the one who was trying to outdo Leonard, by scrambling to try to make his fight with late sub James Kinchen a title bout, and settling for an org that was created weeks earlier and had no champs in any division.

It boggles my mind how flipped the story got over the years.

Nobody has any memory of the buildup of Hearns-Kinchen, nobody asks where Hearns and Kinchen were rated in the WBO Super Middleweight ratings (because the WBO didn't have ratings in any division to go along with their zero champs).

The idea a title was associated with it was a scam. If Leonard hadn't been fighting Lalonde for those titles, Hearns-Kinchen would've been a non-title fight like it was originally when Obel dropped out.

 

Which meant he had to weigh below 168 to defend his 175lb title. There is a reason why the two divisional titles in one night thing hasn't been done since.

Why would Hearns be trying to outdo Leonard? He'd already jumped from middle to light-heavy to beat a reigning light-heavy champ without a catchweight. He was supposed to fight Fully Obel for his WBA super-middle title, but Obel got injured and that's why they hastily scheduled the WBO fight with Kinchen.

 

Ask Hearns why he was trying to outdo Leonard? (LOL)

It was clearly something between them.

Ask Hearns why it was so important to him that the Kinchen fight be for a Super Middleweight title? Nobody else cared but Hearns.

Ask Hearns why it began as a non-title fight. Then it became a North American title fight, because Bob Arum said nobody knows the difference between World title and North American titles. And then when the press started saying it wasn't a world title fight, he and Hearns' team were freaking out and took an organization that was just formed and pushed them into the spotlight because the org had WORLD in its title.

All because Hearns couldn't let Leonard win titles in five divisions before he did.

How many 'world' title fights are also regional 'North American' title fights? (LOL) It was nonsensical. They were trying to pile on as many belts as they could. Regional straps. Paper belts from an org with no ratings or any champs in any divisions. Anything with belts.

 

There was no WBO, just on paper. The WBO didn't fill most of its other division vacancies for a full year.

The IBF and WBA recognized the Super Middleweight division and crowned champs earlier. The WBC was late to the party. They decided to recognize the fight between their reigning Light Heavyweight champion and their last World Middleweight Champion.

The WBO didn't exist anywhere when Hearns-Kinchen was signed (except in the minds of a couple guys who were mad at Gilberto Mendoza) until Hearns needed a belt.

It was so blatantly a scam that the first belt in the first division that new org decided to fill was the Super Middleweight Division? In 1988! (LOL)

RING didn't even recognize Super Middleweights as a division in the sport of boxing at that time.

That's the first belt a new org decides to present?

I mean, c'mon. (LOL)

 

The Ring was still trying to redeem itself from the US Championship scandal. It thus had gone back to roots and at the time only recognised the classic eight divisions. So did not recognise the other, at the time, seven super/light divisions as well the Super Middles...

 

Ring didn't recognize the Super Middleweights before they rediscovered their 'roots.' (LOL)

 

Hearns became a world champion in four divisions a year before Leonard vs Lalonde (welter, light-middle, middle and light-heavy). He was the first one ever to do it, which was a pretty big deal at the time. So you can completely disregard the WBO title he won against Kinchen and Leonard was still playing catch-up. You might ask why Leonard felt he had to catch-up and overtake in the same fight when Hearns had a fight with the WBA's super-middle champ scheduled. One weight-class per fight seems to suffice for everyone else.

 

True. Either way they had lost a lot of editorial confidence for long periods between the US Championships and going bust. Indeed supporting Spinks was probably their only highlight.


After they came back, they seemed to start getting some credibility again.

 

I know Hearns was the first to win titles in four divisions. I know Hearns had a fight scheduled with Obel. (I'm the one who brought it up in this thread.)

You seem to have a problem with Lalonde-Leonard being for TWO belts at once. If were are a titleholder back then (don't know if it's still the case) and you weighed UNDER the weight limit for a fight, your title was on the line.

They didn't have "under-the-weight" non-title fights back then. If you wanted to have a non-title fight, you had to be over the limit where you held a title. So Lalonde's 175 belt was going to be on the line, regardless. That's the way it was then.

You don't have to weigh in the defined limits to fight for a belt as long as you come in under the weight.

Neither Leonard nor Duran weighed between 161 and 168 when they fought for Leonard's super middleweight title in 1989.

In fact, that third Leonard-Duran fight was supposed to be for BOTH the WBC middleweight and WBC super middleweight titles, and both made the middleweight limit. But Lindell Holmes (Duran's mando) refused to step aside. So Duran agreed to give it up and it wasn't on the line.

Leonard didn't weigh between 161 and 168 when he defended his super middleweight title against Hearns that year, either. But his belt was on the line, along with Hearns' title ... because he was under the 168-pound limit.

But you never hear anyone mentioning weights for those fights. Whatever.

Somehow, over the years, the story morphed to "Leonard tried to cheat Hearns." Hearns won his fourth title the prior year. He was scheduled to fight Obel before Leonard and Lalonde, too.

Lalonde's 175 was on the line because he didn't want to vacate it. Since he was under the limit, it was on the line, too. If Lalonde won, he'd have held two titles at the same time.

There wasn't a whole lot of discussion around it until Hearns made it a big deal and showed how important it was to him. When Obel fell out, and it looked like Leonard was going to get to titles in five divisions before Hearns, all of a sudden everyone noticed how panicky Hearns' team was trying to make the Kinchen fight a title bout.

Then the Hearns team made it out like Leonard was trying to cheat Hearns out of something.
Now that's what people tend to believe.

(If Leonard wanted to cheat Hearns, he could've just scheduled the fight with Lalonde before Hearns' fight. But that didn't come up because that wasn't the point. Leonard was just looking for a challenge.)

And considering there is a whole thread about Leonard-Lalonde, there isn't a thread about "What was the reaction to Hearns-Kinchen at the time" because NOBODY considered it an actual world title fight.

It gained value over the years as the WBO ended up becoming one of the recognized bodies. But that didn't happen until YEARS later. At the time, literally no one had ever heard of them because they'd never sanctioned a fight before. Not any fight. Ever. (LOL)

 

I don't know who Lindell Holmes knew to get rated #1 by the WBC at middleweight. I just checked the ratings, and at that time, Holmes was the WBC #1. Julian Jackson was #2 (having recently vacated his Super Welter title after beating Norris). Michael Watson (off his win over Benn) was #3. Herol Graham was #4.

As soon as Duran agreed to give it up and it looked like Holmes-Jackson for the vacant belt, Holmes left the division and next fought Frank Tate at super middle (LOL). Watson next challenged WBA Middleweight champ McCallum. And that left poor Herol to fight Jackson.

Just a bunch of nonsense. Leonard and Duran should've fought for both belts.

Maybe we would've gotten Leonard-Julian Jackson next.

 

I don't see anything natural about matching a mediocre 175 pound light heavyweight champion at 168 with a guy who won the 160 pound middleweight title against Hagler- that was worthy of winning two titles? I don't see it. The fighters should be at their best to fight fora title. I don't even see the Canelo vs. Mayweather fight years ago as legit. Even those 2 pounds.

The fact is Leonard vs. Lalonde for two titles? I should not have been allowed. Ray was not bigger than boxing. What did Ray do to get a fight against a weakened mediocre champion for belts which should not have been at stake either time. Guys fight hard and weigh in for fights to win one belt, which is the big thing in their life, and he can just sneak in a win with two titles because he was Ray? That was a farce.
You are right about the Duran title. I was wrong there. Getting older. Duran won that Barkley fight months later and won his 4th, and Ray probably knew Duran could beat Barkley and he knew Duran was going to go for the titles, so Ray jumping in on the title accumlations late in the fab fours careers. Benitez had won 3-and he would have been the fab 5 had he fought Marvin. Duran is great on the inside and his right hand is underrated so beating Barkley was not out of question. Ray knew what he could do. In a 3-4 month span 3 members of the fab 4 won 4 titles.. That was their interest then.

As for Ray. Again to me those were not a legit title wins- if the weight is not at the weight of the title. I do not believe a title can be at stake with a catchweight of any kind, and I don't think Ray deserved either title. No way. Impossible. He didn't fight the champion at his best weight so how is that winning that title? I don't see how it matters who fought for the IBF title or WBA they matched Sutherland and Singletary to get it started. Were those at catchweights? That was not a Leonard cheating his way and using his name to get two titles on one night. He thought he was bigger than boxing. I remember Park wanting the winner of Hearns vs. Obel.

As it turned out Tommy beat both those guys Sutherland and Singletary by decision, which doesn't mean too much, but it demonstrates how he fought more regularly the guys who were in all the divisions when Ray was watching fights and commentating for HBO. We have had title fights for vacant titles with guys who never deserved it on the rankings which are sometimes ridiculous but they are legit. The issue I have is the weight not the ranking. Had Lalonde been the champion at 168 and was allowed to win in at 168 I would have thought Ray won that one title. But to me he won neither.

The fact is if the title fight is sanctioned and the guys weigh in at the weight, then it is legit as much as you can say. To me Ray is a 3 time titlist and this was a joke fight with Lalonde. He wanted to match Hearns whom won 4 against Roldan after winning his 3rd against Andries in the same year (1987) he knew was going to go for 5. Saying he was not jumping on Hearns bandwagon would not be accurate.
Ray had said he was surprised at all the hoopla Hearns had recieved when he fought Roldan, so he wanted in on the party. He said this at the end of 1987 and his fight with Lalonde was the end of 1988.

And the way he did it with two titles in one night against a very mediocre Lalonde, who had a good right hand but was not a really skilled fighter. And the only reason Ray fought Tommy in the rematch was because he thought he would stop him the first time he landed and hurt Tommy and then he knew he would use his boxing against Duran and he would have had 2 great wins against his fellow legends in 1989 and that would have closed off the decade. As it was he got the fighter of the decade award, which some questions did he deserve. I suppose he did. He beat all the greats he fought. As it turned out, Tommy experience and activity through out the whole decade showed in the rematch and he was the more experienced guy in the rematch. And then in 1991 Tommy beats Virgil Hill without a catchweight and Virgil had 10 titles defenses and was undefeated.



And the WBO came up which organizations do and there is a legend who could legitimize it. That type of thing happens I was not thrilled about it. A legend wants a fight and he gets it, but Tommy would have fought Obel at the weight and it would have been a legit win. Whether Obel got the rib injury or not 2 or 3 weeks before the fight that was bad luck for Tommy. Actually the fight was cancelled on Tommy's birthday October 18th. In retrospect the WBO has a decent reputation and the win which Tommy had against Kinchen was a much more legit win than Ray over Lalonde at 2 weights-in my mind. Ray never fought at either weight, and Lalonde was not a champion at 168.. The weight is the issue. I would have accepted the result more had Ray fought the champion at 168 and had a normal weigh in and won one title, but not two in one night. Even had he fought for the vacant title it would have been more legit. That two titles was a joke and an insult on boxing, and people were upset about his games and would applaud Tommy before big fights and boo Ray.