What weight do you need to be to beat a top super heavyweight with skills?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Mendoza, Jun 22, 2017.



Page 4 of 7
  1. BlackCloud

    BlackCloud I detest the daily heavyweight threads Full Member

    3,201
    3,370
    Nov 22, 2012
    So did Carnera, Brian London & Richard Dunn ( 1 title attempt ).
    I wouldn't call those 3 particularly skilled.
    Ok the last 2 aren't superheavys but it kind of puts it into perspective relative to era and rankings in that timeframe.
     
    BlackCloud, Jun 23, 2017
    BlackCloud, Jun 23, 2017
    #46
  2. Mr.DagoWop

    Mr.DagoWop Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

    8,129
    1,751
    Jul 1, 2015
    Carnera wasn't unskilled.

    Brian London and Richard Dunn aren't equivalents to Simon and Baer. Simon and Baer got a shot at the title TWICE each.
     
    Mr.DagoWop, Jun 23, 2017
    Mr.DagoWop, Jun 23, 2017
    #47
  3. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

    55,255
    10,264
    Jun 29, 2007

    Unforgiven,

    First off, what is your take on Holyfield, the only 217-238 pound man since....a lifetime able to beat a skilled super heavyweight with skills over 240 pounds without a fluke injury, or DQ type of result, going but 1-4 vs Bowe and Lewis on any fair score card?

    If you haven't guessed, I like replies in this thread as I will use other posters ideas/data to continuing analyzing.

    Yes, please list the best big men over 240 pounds ( Not fat ones please, or the old ones ) who were ranked in the top ten from 1950-1970. Go ahead, I'll add them to the case study.

    By 1980-1990, you can do the same. It will be very interesting to see if any of the 180-210 pound heavyweights from 1950-1990 were able to beat a 240 pound+ giant who distinguished themselves on Bowe, Lewis, and Klitschko's level.
     
    Mendoza, Jun 23, 2017
    Mendoza, Jun 23, 2017
    #48
  4. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

    55,255
    10,264
    Jun 29, 2007

    Okay, your saying Holyfield was too old for the Lewis fights.

    I must ask this. How would you rate Lewis, Bowe, and W. Klitschko?

    I do not have your top 100 chart handy, but my guess is you have Bowe 3rd of the lot, meaning Holyfield, who likely rate higher than Bowe on your list is 33% vs the least of the super heavyweights I using for data.

    Holyfield was badly pounded in the first fight and knocked out in the 3rd by Bowe. He just did not have the size to match up, but he sure showed good heart!

    A chance of 33% is still not a very good chance.

    Fair enough?
     
    Mendoza, Jun 23, 2017
    Mendoza, Jun 23, 2017
    #49
  5. HerolGee

    HerolGee VIP Member banned Full Member

    41,974
    4,015
    Sep 22, 2010
    absolutely not, your sample size is non existent, its one, for goodness sake.

    how on earth did you even manage to write what you did, given that it failed on that?
     
    HerolGee, Jun 23, 2017
    HerolGee, Jun 23, 2017
    #50
  6. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    108,294
    38,866
    Mar 21, 2007
    No. I'm saying what I said - that he was past-prime.

    Lewis, Wlad, Bowe.

    You refined your question to an absurd degree in your first post. Now you are refining it even further in suggesting that even a top 30 heavyweight of all time isn't good enough to properly reflect your absurdly low sample.

    It doesn't matter what did, or did not happen. Your question was "what weight do you need to be to beat a SHW with skills". A good example here would be Pulev or Fury. You've whittled that down to the fighters you always want to talk about when you talk about size, and now you're even eliminating one of those in order to help shore up your data.

    So no, not fair enough. Ridiculous in fact.

    He did have the size to match up; he matched up so well he won. Against, by your reckoning, the #4 SHW in history.

    Again, Holyfield could beat any of these guys. Any of them. So could Tyson. So could Liston. You'll have a long, long list of reasons why you don't think this is the case. But nothing you say will preclude the possibility.

    If I decided to refine it by pointing out that Holyfield had Hepatitis for the fight he was knocked out in, does that up the chance? This is rhetorical btw, I don't care.
     
    McGrain, Jun 23, 2017
    McGrain, Jun 23, 2017
    #51
  7. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

    55,255
    10,264
    Jun 29, 2007

    Wlad was 39 and 41, vs bigger men, so unless you think he was in his prime, it really doesn't matter.

    If you had the ability to reason, or research, you'd find that Wlad has more victories over men 235-250 pounds than just about anyone....McCline, Peter, Austin, Thompson, Wach, and Pulev to name a few. There are more if you want to look :)

    Darn, this isn't working out for you is it, Dino?

    Furthermore, Wlad blew away the smaller heavies that were ranked with shocking ease under 220 pounds. Byrd 2x, and Chambers. And he had an easy night with Haye.

    Vitali also has a few victories over men from 235-240+ Dino. I think your data needs a lot of work : )
     
    Mendoza, Jun 23, 2017
    Mendoza, Jun 23, 2017
    #52
  8. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

    55,255
    10,264
    Jun 29, 2007
    I agree with the ranking, of Lewis, Wlad and Bowe, so Holyfield throwing out the data on Lewis is just 33% here vs Bowe.

    Bowe was lazy by the 3rd Holyfield fight, so whatever excuse Holyfield is using, his heart, an injury, hep C is a wash.

    Tyson is 0-1 vs Lewis, and that fight was not close. Maybe he too would be 33% vs Lewis if they fought three times.

    Liston. What is his record vs fighters who weight more than him that were ranked? 0-2 vs Ali and....

    I've got some more good stuff to post later.
     
    Mendoza, Jun 23, 2017
    Mendoza, Jun 23, 2017
    #53
  9. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    108,294
    38,866
    Mar 21, 2007
    It was Hep A. Bowe was in better shape for the third fight than the second, both in terms of poundage and by his own admission.

    He also threw more punches per-minute in the third fight. So not sure what you are basing this on.

    You're throwing out Wlad as old versus Fury but allowing utterly shot Tyson into your "data" :lol: Come on, are you even taking this seriously any more?

    "More"? Mendoza, this is terrible.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2017
    McGrain, Jun 23, 2017
    McGrain, Jun 23, 2017
    #54
  10. dinovelvet

    dinovelvet Antifanboi Full Member

    57,214
    17,666
    Jul 21, 2012
    He must have been prime because you picked Wlad win both fights.. It Furys case it wasn't even fathomable that he could win.
    But your making the excuse than he was old , but you won't accept that Lewis was old when he fought Vitali.

    Well guess what numbnuts ? Not only was Lewis old , he was under-prepared and unmotivated. Yet he still won. He got the win.
    Wlad was comprehensively beaten both times and he was in much better shape and much better prepared.
    Who would you say is a better opponent? Vitali or Fury and Joshua. You say Vitali.
    So that terrible version of Lewis beat the better fighter in your eyes so you should rank him head and shoulders above Wlad

    And none of them could hold Joshua's , Furys or Lewis , Bows jock strap. MaCline lolol. He was about as good as Lou Saverese.
    These are not the victories ATG resumes are made of. If thats all Wlad was good enough to beat then it means he falls below elite level as a boxer.

    Brewster was a smaller HW and Wlad was blown away by HIM. Throw Sanders in there as well as another SHW with skills Wlad wasn't able to beat.

    When you look at Wlads resume the only two SHWs that stand out are Fury and AJ who was still a novice. Nobody is thinking of the bums you brought up.
    So it remains that Wlad is 0-2 against the two best boxers he ever faced.

    Lets look at it this way . Top 5 guys Wlad fought

    Fury
    Joshua
    Povetkin
    Brewster
    Sanders.

    Thats 1-4-0 . But in reality its 0-5-0 because Wlad did not beat Povetkin in a fair contest and deserved to have been DQ'd 10x over.
     
    dinovelvet, Jun 23, 2017
    dinovelvet, Jun 23, 2017
    #55
    ticar likes this.
  11. HerolGee

    HerolGee VIP Member banned Full Member

    41,974
    4,015
    Sep 22, 2010
    you'd have to add in Shaggy and ibrahimov too, thats 2 wins more.

    I am not sure fury was one of his best opponets.
     
    HerolGee, Jun 23, 2017
    HerolGee, Jun 23, 2017
    #56
  12. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

    58,763
    21,435
    Nov 24, 2005
    Sorry I can't help further. It's hurting my little brain.
    Good luck with your data collection and analysis.
     
    Unforgiven, Jun 23, 2017
    Unforgiven, Jun 23, 2017
    #57
    dinovelvet likes this.
  13. RealDeal

    RealDeal Pugilist Specialist Full Member

    1,540
    1,556
    May 2, 2009
    There are guys in the Cruiserweight class who I'd think are definitely capable of beating a "super heavyweight" if they land a perfect punch against a guy with a questionable chin. For example, I think it is possible someone like Usyk could KO Wladimir Klitschko (especially now that he is getting older) if he caught him with just the right shot. It is unlikely but certainly possible.
     
    RealDeal, Jun 23, 2017
    RealDeal, Jun 23, 2017
    #58
  14. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

    55,255
    10,264
    Jun 29, 2007
    I understand, but you will miss some fine comedy from Dino. The type where you laugh at him, not with him.
     
    Mendoza, Jun 23, 2017
    Mendoza, Jun 23, 2017
    #59
  15. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

    55,255
    10,264
    Jun 29, 2007
    LOL! Dino, you make me smile.

    Not that I agree with the your top five guys, But I do recall Wlad being Brewster and Povetkin, so Dino if you need a little help adding 1 + 1, I'm here.

    Also, Wald was 39 and 41 in losses to Fury and Joshua. No shame there, and Fury is not better than either Chagaev, Haye, or Ibraimov, he'll have to prove that.
     
    Mendoza, Jun 23, 2017
    Mendoza, Jun 23, 2017
    #60
Page 4 of 7