What welterweights would you pick to beat the Duran of the first Leonard fight?

This only holds water if one accepts the notion that Ray choked. Montreal was the most hyped non heavyweight promotion in ages. He had just crushed Green in lethal fashion, and was dealing with an older and smaller opponent moving up from 135. There was no guarantee of a rematch for the loser, so both had to make the most of what might well be their only opportunity. (For an extended period after Montreal, the futures of both combatants was up in the air. It was at this moment that I thought Duran should make a beeline for a WW unification with Hearns, before he had a chance to eat and party away his edge.)

Duran had it locked up in the scoring after ten rounds. In fact, an unofficial UPI report read live on the USA east coast evening newscasts following the conclusion of the tenth round stated that Duran had just won nine of the first ten rounds of their match still in progress. (The late WCVB-TV Channel 5 sports director Don Gillis read this transcript during his segment on the Boston newscast that night.) At this same moment, Duran himself correctly announced to his corner after round ten that he had already clinched the scoring. Official scorecards shortly verified the accuracy of UPI's, and his own reporting.

El Cholo's control over the first ten rounds in Montreal is comparable to the degree with which he beat Palomino over ten. The decisive phase of this battle was a near whitewash.

 

completely agree.Leonard only seemed to have the intiative for about two rounds circa 5th.Other than that Duran was as MRBILL might say "putting some serious wood on him".

 

Palomino didn't look on the decline to me. He'd just went 12 hard-fought rounds in a much closer than remembered bout with Benitez. And I certainly don't think Leonard had an off-night. He fought a great fight himself, he was just outdone by the better man that night. Noone who fights like he did during the championship rounds of a fight where he'd already recieved so much punishment is having an off night. He showed more grit and resolve in that fight than any other, and fought very well.

 

Ive seen him in his earliest MW fights & thats close enough.... Duran is yet again being badly overrated, he is one of my favourite fighters but c`mon, back to reality people.
He didnt dominate **** for 12 rds vs SRL either, he was winning tho, the Leonard of the 2nd fight beats any version of Duran, the Montreal version by UD.
Benitez would always frustrate him, not sure who would win that one but I know who did win when they did fight - & pretty clearly at that.

Hearns has too many physical advantages for Duran, period, as does Robinson, both hit too hard & both are faster as well as superior distance boxers.

Robinson was a bigger man naturally than even Leonard, who was a full WW at his best, he didnt KO guys like Lamotta & Fulmer by accident... Duran would be in a world of **** vs a bigger AND superior fighter that just has too much for him.

 

Comedy gold.

Keep that **** up, outstanding :good

 

Robinson, Hearns definitely imo

 

15 rounds, actually, under the Puerto Rican sun, and he attempted a characteristic late charge. One of Palomino's goals was to retire by 30, and he achieved this. (Having a degree and money in the bank, he certainly didn't need to continue fighting.)

While the outcome was already decided by the championship rounds, Ray's body was mottled black and blue from the punishment he had taken. Even though Duran let up on his throttle a bit, it was still a remarkable display of toughness, energy and conditioning SRL demonstrated after the body beating he'd taken. An off night would suggest wilting in such a situation, not a late rally.

Duran, SRL and Palomino were 15 round iron men, and taking nine of ten rounds from the latter two at this stage probably required the services of a top five or ten P4P ATG.

 

No, he wasn't. Both men were full Welterweights standing roughly the same height with similar reaches. Robinson often weighed in well below the MW limit for his bouts at the weight.

 

I don't think it is, not to make such a cocksure, definite and damning verdict.

Have you seen the Palomino fight? Have you seen the first Leonard fight? I will assume so. That man was easily as good as anyone else who has ever fought at welter, just watch his performances, the proof is in the pudding.

He was winning clearly and comfortably against a prime version of one of the top two or three welterweights ever in a hell of a fight. Again I ask, what more proof do you need of his effectiveness at 147??

The Leonard of the second fight was the Leonard of the first fight. Had Ray undergone a sudden metamorphosis in between those fights?? I don't think so. He was the same superb fighter he always was. It was Duran who was different.

Duran beat the best SRL. SRL did not beat the best Duran. This is unquestionable.

Again, have you seen the first Leonard fight? No way does Benitez live with that version of Duran, truly one of the top two or three fighting machines in boxing history.

Period nothing. The Montreal Duran stops the Hearns of the first Leonard fight. For all Tommy's great skill and power at 147, you can't pretend he wasn't very vulnerable, maybe not against good solid B class fighters like Cuevas, but ATG welters like SRL and Duran would expose that frailty over 15 rounds. Tommy was at a weight too low for him, and his chin was not just suspect, but proven to be a weak spot by Leonard. I'm tired of everyone reacting like its blasphemy to point out Hearns's chin. Yes he was an amazing fighter, but at times he could be all over the place with merely glancing shots from a powerful opponent. He would outbox Duran, he would hurt and punish him, but in the end Duran would make the breakthrough and leave him in a crumpled heap.

At 154, Hearns beats Duran 10 times out of 10. But this is one of those rare instances where one weight class does make a great difference to how a fight would go.

Do you think the Montreal Duran would allow it to be made into a fight from distance? Prime Ray Leonard couldn't keep him off. Duran was the greatest swarming infighter of all-time. If he wanted the fight to be at close quarters, it would be at close quarters for the most part. He was too fast, too incessant, too rampaging to be held off.

As Pea has already pointed out, this is inaccurate. Robinson was small at mw.

I've never said that Duran would definitely beat Robinson. But the fact that he beat a prime Ray Leonard at 147 proves that on his night he could hang with anyone who ever fought at that weight. You said Robinson would "**** him up badly" and "tear him to pieces", or something like that. My point is that Robinson would do nothing of the sort. He probably would beat Duran (probably), but he would have to come through a monumental war to get that win. If Duran cut the ring off the same way he did against Leonard, Robinson would have a horrific time with him on the inside. Of course SRR may come through it as he was insanely good, but to imply it would be a blast-out is silly.

 

Its a very intresting question. The more i watch the Duran from Palomino and Leonard 1 the more i realise what a special fighter he was, amazing offensively and one of the best defensive fighters as well. His ability to combine the 2 at the same time is unmatched in my opinion. Getting inside landings his shots then rolling, slipping and sliding his opponents return fire. However there are a few i give have the best shout

Leonard from the rematch. Now i totally agree that leonard in the 1st fight fought his usual fight, he was a boxer puncher, a brilliant one and he believed that he would get the best of the smaller duran from his usual style. I think he learnt a very valuable lesson from the fight however and he worked on a different style completly, one unusual to him for the rematch, but one laid out to give duran more problems. A leonard using far more lateral movement, attacking only when he knew he would land and clowing around would have always effected duran and caused him issues. Now a Montreal Duran would be more capable of getting at leonard than the version we seen in mew orleans, Duran was a step quicker and far more intense that night, he would have done everything to get inside and been more of a handful when there. My best guess is that Duran would still beat Leonard, but tighter and he would have needed the last 3 rounds to do so.

Hearns, while Duran was clearly past his best when he actually fought hearns, the hitman would always have caused him a nightmare styles wise. His speed, size, reach and power is a nightmare for Duran. Duran of course would have more to combat him if we take his 147 version, he would not get blown out and would get inside hearns and when he was there would cause damage, could he get there often enough is the question, my best guess would be Duran getting taken out around 9 after taking one to many straight rights on the way inside but a Duran stoppage or TKO could not be ruled out

Robinson. Duran is the fighter i give the best chance of beating Ray at 147, for me a highly technical inside fighter, espicially one with the skill and defence of roberto has the best chance of getting to SRR. While i wouldn't be at all suprised to see roberto to pull this one out i have to favour Robinson, for me he was more effective of the back foot than leonard, he could get more leverage from his punches and i think his footwork was slightly more impressive. I dont see Duran getting inside with Robinson as often as he did in montreal and when he does he will be taking more fire to get there. Robinson is a massive puncher, accurate and fast. I see Duran taking too much and after a close 1st 10 robinson either having a late TKO or him beginning to slow down and robinson pulling away for a tight UD or SD

I also give Rodriguez and Griffith a decent shout against Duran, I favour him clearly over everyone else

 

I take Duran - Leonard I at face value. Duran just beat him. Great fight between 2 great fighters. The experience Leonard gained in the first fight was vital in the 2nd fight. Leonard just didn't have the answers for Duran in the 1st fight. However, the suggestion that Duran took his foot off the pedal in the championship rounds is utter bull****. He was trying to kill Leonard. They were trying to kill each other. That's why it's one of the greatest fights ever.

 

I'd hate to in court with you on the jury. Leonard was still improving when Duran beat him, and the experience did him no end of good.

Duran taught Leonard the art of psychological warfare, and oh how he turned it on him next fight regardless of Duran's excuses and supporters. Duran was calling his wife a ***** and other such rot before the first fight, and by the time the bout was underway there was Leonard looking to kill him, playing right into the experienced masters hands. Duran may have been the one soul who knew how well he could offset an aggressive Leonard.

Leonard took Duran's lessons and never looked back. He was a master of the psychological side from then on, as evidenced in Duran 2, Hearns I and Hagler.

Leonard was probably hitting his absolute peak around or just after the Hearns fight i'd say. Unfortunately he retired about this time. He was pre peak Duran I, even if we only took experience into account.

 

No doubt he matured mentally and learnt from the first Duran fight.

But I still dont buy the pre peak story..Again one of his most complete performances was against Benitez 6 months earlier.

I didnt see a performance like that again...He flat out looked below par against Bonds..and quality of opposition and styles aside I wasnt as impressed with him against Kalule and Hearns either..not to say they werent very impressive wins, I just felt his fight with Wilfred was the best I ever saw of him at welter.

 

Peak isn't prime. It can't be argued IMO that the Duran experience didn't forward him as a fighter. People can excuse Duran and belittle and bemoan Leonard all they like, but tactically and mentally he was ready to perform to perfection in the rematch, regardless of stories, allowances and whatever else comes forth.

Benitez, tho tricky and a great fell nicely into SRL and Dundee's perfect gameplan. Leonard was at least as fast, had a much better chin and hit substancially harder. The fight was his for the taking as long as he was patient and stuck to his plan. He was hardly getting up vs Bonds, and he was known to struggle vs southpaws (which makes Hagler coming out righty even more ridiculous) anyway, which Kalule and Bonds were.

As for Hearns, well for all we know there may not have been another Welter in history that would have beat him, or certainly VERY few. Who was going to look good against him? Leonard showed true tenacity and greatness to hang in there, bide his time, rough it out and seize the moments when they eventually came - at a price. His win over Hearns impresses the **** out of me personally, because i weigh up the factors and take into account what was up against him. Benitez couldn't penetrate Hearns and he made a then resurgent Duran look like an inept sparring partner.

The Leonard who fought Duran was going to do no better against Hearns, and may have even done less well. Going in vs Hearns he sure knew he could be beaten, because he had been. I'd venture even beside the rage that he was overconfident vs Duran. Why would he not be? Duran was just previously a lightweight and who knew he could rise to such dramatic heights.

 

I dumbfounded by this claim. It's so stupid it's almost unreal. You can speculate that it was so, but it's an astronomical distance from unquestionable. And yet I see very good posters claim this. The Duran myth sure warps minds.

Pretty much like above. To claim this with such surety when Benitez very comfortably beat Duran just a couple of years after Montreal... Can't take it seriously.

Unbelievable. Hearns spanked him like no ATG ever been spanked before or since. But you are sure four years and 8 lbs would more or less reverse this? I lack for words.

The three claims you make here are bad separately, but together they erode 100% of your credibility on the subject.