What were Julio Cesar Chavez Sr.’s flaws as a boxer, if he even had any?

I don't think he did, his defence was decent, body punching was ATG, his power was vicious and his chin was good. His endurance was incredible, he could fight forever seemingly. He wasn't slow but he wasn't exactly a prime Roy Jones Jr, and I'd say that's his only real weakness outside of Stylistically, he could be outslicked due to him not being as quick as other ATGs, Pernell won imo based of his footwork, jab and speed.

Stylistically he has a few guys who would be huge nightmares for him, bit the worst is probably Wilfred Benitez, who was just all wrong for him, too slick, too Defensive and enough of an offence to convincingly win the rounds. Another one although not as and would be Locche. I think Chavez would win based on Locches lack of an arsenal but he'd look horrible in the process.

 

No, I think flaw is a bit too strong a word. More that he perhaps slightly lacked a few subtleties and nuances to add to his fundamental brilliance, perhaps one punch knockout power too. From a view of all of the basics and textbook techniques, he was magnificent. Chin down, hands up, solid head movement, impeccable punching technique, punch variety to head and body with both hands, ability at all ranges, excellent footwork and tracking movement, able to lead or counter, good timing etc. And obviously an iron chin and relentless stamina. He was very methodical and metronomic in his approach though without a great deal of rhythmic variance or imagination to expand slightly. Mechanical perhaps?

He didn't quite have the abnormal physicality or reflexes of Duran, Chang, Harada etc, the tendency to quickly shift, pivot, roll under shots, feint with his head and feet, quickly improvise, move through different planes of attack instinctively or close the distance with frightening speed of foot.

More like a classical realist painter or still life recreated in comparison to a great impressionist who has that ability but with wild imagination and creativity outside the box with brush strokes and use of colour ala Van Gogh.

It was Whitaker's ability to deviate from the norm in addition to having conquered all the fundamentals that gave him the clear edge over Chavez that he wouldn't have over Duran or even different fighters like Armstrong or Napoles, maybe even Ortiz. I don't think Chavez for example would have had as hard a time with a more conventional slickster like Mayweather. Though I know mark ant rates Mayweather a lot more than I do and is bound to disagree.

 

Way way too many names. It is ludiquious.

 

Brilliant post. Chavez is the guy you show to an average amateur to study. Guys like Duran you show them to admire.

 

Mark, you’re starting that many threads I think you’re getting you’re posts mixed up.

 

Prime Chavez didn't have a MAJOR flaw.

But if there's anything he lacked it was great quickness, although at 130-135 he was quicker than people remember, and cut the ring off as well as any fighter in history. His methodical/conventional attack was beautiful to watch from a technical standpoint, but also meant he was outboxable at times, and vulnerable to speed.

Chavez is most often compared to Duran, and ultimately there's a few things that separated the two and made Duran better - Duran was a lot quicker/more athletic, Duran had a lot more power, and Duran's style was far more unorthodox, and harder to read.

But Chavez remains the best, and most skilled fighter Mexico has ever produced, and quite frankly, it's hard to image there ever being a Mexican fighter that surpasses him.

 

He simply wasn't the fastest fighter in the world which meant he could be outboxed by slick boxers like Whitaker and outworked by speedsters like Taylor.

 

Looks as if most bases have been covered already. His speed (in terms of hands and reflexes) was only serviceable, and he maybe wasn't the best adapter in a fight - but then again, when you're winning for so often and for so long, you don't need to do all that much adapting.

Oddly enough, in his early championship career as a Super-Featherweight he could be easily subdued and pushed around in the clinches, struggling to get shots off there. I say odd, because when he was a more established star and at the higher weights, he was incredibly hard to push back and tie up in close. I suspect he was always a bit tight at the weight as a 130 pounder (he tended to have a couple of his ribs too easily visible at that weight, in my opinion) and that probably played a part. He looked more solid at 135 and 140 and those weights allowed his natural strength to flourish much better - his 130 lb performances were generally a rung or two lower in quality than what he produced as a Lightweight or Light-Welter.

I also think he fought a little too much on emotion and machismo at times. Obviously, that's what made him such a fan favourite and brought plenty of success, but he actually had better technical qualities at mid-range than some seem to realise. Forgot to jab his way in sometimes in his prime years because he always wanted to put on a show and dish out serious pain. I thought his draw with Gonzalez in 1998 (a very creditable and respectful result, given the circumstances) was proof of that - he actually looked really good in that fight when he went in to pure boxing mode, which he was forced to do as his explosiveness, intensity and stalking just wasn't there anymore.

Mind you, I guess it wouldn't have made that much difference to his career even if he had used his jab more and been a shade more patient - he was never really going to beat Whitaker or Randall in or around their primes (I just can't buy in to the verdict of Randall II, sorry!), and he beat everyone else by hook or crook until 1993/94, by which point his legacy was already secured. Chavez was just one of those guys who had no obvious weakness but at the same time wasn't the most athletically gifted - so he just drilled the strengths he had and maximised them to devastating effect. His conditioning, core strength, short body hooks, chin, accuracy and shot selection were all world class.

 

Sure. He couldn't handle angles too well. And they all had better hand speed than him. And they made his defense look highly ordinary.

 

Chavez didn't have a major flaw, that in essence is what made him great. I kind of go back to what teddy atlas said when referencing Chavez in that Chavez wasn't exceptional in any one area, but he was good in all areas which was what made him great. His fundamentals were some of the best; his ability to make you miss under fire while cutting ring off, his patience to slowly break you to the body, later to the head, and his strong determination and conditioning where he got stronger as the fight went on are all things that made him great. Sure, he lacked the kind of athletic explosiveness that Duran had, but he made up for it with more technical fundamentals. For example, he didn't leave himself off balance the way duran would lounging a lot and missing(especially lightweight). Chavez was always in great balance and positioning. Just like another post stated, I would rather have an amateur study Chavez than duran and manny pacquiao because both pacquaio and Duran relied more on God given Genetic traits, than pure fundamental skills.

 

Than again whitaker was a special boxer. He would have made life difficult for most fighters, including duran! Just look at how leonicio Ortiz southpawstyle gave Duran fits. Whitaler would have also troubled Ortiz and any fighter in that division. I don't think it's to Chaves discredit that he couldn't figure him out.

 

Yep!

 

True, Pea was a rarity. There's a fair difference between troubling a fighter and outclassing them, though, which is what he did to Chavez. Chavez shouldn't be given a hard time for it but there's little chance imo that Whitaker would beat Duran by the same margin.

Duran was pre prime and going through a phase of in-ring improvement and evolution when he fought Ortiz I think. He visibly lacked urgency and didn't show the same fire as when threatened by better fighters like Buchanan, De Jesus, Fernandez etc. You can see him implementing the more tempered textbook approach and balanced counter punching that Brown and Arcel were instilling into the raw talent/aggression. Against a fighter he didn't feel threatened by and when he hadn't mastered the range of techniques he'd demonstrate a couple of years later. He didn't look his usual self, true enough, but look at how he closed the gap on Buchanan and Marcel, Fernandez too and wasn't thrown by their trickery and mobility.