What will happen after Canelo knocks out Terence?

He won't be stronger.

He won't hit harder.

It's completely unrealistic to think that he could stop Canelo.

 

You are so difficult to debate with.


How many more posts are you going to make, without being able to apply CONTEXT?

How many more posts are you going to make, where even any slight criticism or questioning of Terence, results in you believing that people are HATING on him?


NOBODY has BELITTLED Terence.

NOBODY.


Terence has dominated his field?

Absolutely.

He's a GREAT fighter.

However, he hasn't fought ANY prime greats, and nobody even close to the guys who Duran fought.


NO, it is not ignorant to say that Terence hasn't fought the same calibre of fighters that Duran did.

Read carefully:

It is a stone cold FACT that Terence hasn't fought the same calibre of fighters as what Duran did.


Yes, Duran lost to fighters.

However, he was TINY.

A tiny fighter, with a TINY reach, who fought PRIME ATG fighters, up at HIGHER weights.

CONTEXT.


Look at this fight between Canelo and Terence.

Duran had about FOUR of those types of fights.


Terence has NEVER fought ANYBODY as GREAT as Leonard, Hearns or Hagler.

He has NEVER fought anyone the equivalent of where Duran beat Barkley, at 36, up at MW, after NINETY fights, giving up that much size.


Terence DOES NOT rank above Duran at the moment.

Even with the losses, Duran ranks higher.

Again, CONTEXT.


Duran is the same calibre of Shawn Porter?

Oh my.

Yeah, I'm sure that Porter could have beaten Leonard and Barkley, and been even with Marvin after 12 rounds.


Stop embarrassing yourself.

 

It's sure going to be interesting.

Canelo is sluggish in comparison, but I personally think that he'll be highly motivated for the fight.

I think that he'll try and walk him down with power punches.

I can't wait.

 

Wow.

You are so defensive, it's unreal.


Terence is a GREAT fighter, and everything that's great with the sport.

A true role model.


I obviously don't know him personally, but he genuinely gives me the impression that he would have LOVED to have tested his skills against the likes of the 'Fab Four'

I believe that he's cut from the same cloth.


However, you must stop being so defensive, and face reality.

Without hating or disrespecting him in any way, his official accolades aren't that great, when you break them down and apply context.


There is nothing even remotely impressive about beating Porter, and washed versions of Brook and Khan etc.

Wins over Gamboa and Burns etc, were very good, but nothing more.

The win over Spence was great, but we have to question how great Spence was, and what condition he was in.


He simply hasn't fought any great fighters who were prime.

That is not his fault.

But that is the reality.

 

The man isn't capable of having an objective debate.

 

It's not as simple as that though is it.

It depends on how they match up stylistically and how the fight plays out.

It's like noting that Mike Tyson knocked out Larry Holmes in 4 rounds, yet he couldn't knock out Smith.

 

This is a great post.

I'm not sure about your percentages though.

Yes, Canelo does need the right opponent to look good. But despite that, IMHO, he had zero motivation for Scull, where he just went through the motions.

I think that he'll be hugely motivated against Terence.

Hopefully, as well as being an intriguing fight, it's also an exciting one too.

It might surprise us all.

 

It is simply a FACT that Duran fought better competition.

Not an opinion.

But a FACT.


Also, Duran often ranks higher than other members of the 'Fab Four' and especially Marvin.

This is when that magic word appears again - CONTEXT.


Duran is rated so highly, because he was a tiny 5'6 guy, with a tiny 66' reach, yet he had a one hundred plus fight career, where he fought until his 50's, which included him winning a title at MW, at 36, after 90 plus fights, despite being in his prime at LW.

Yes, he lost to Duran, Leonard and Marvin, but he beat a prime Leonard, he was level with Marvin after 12 rounds, and it goes without saying, that he had absolutely no business whatsoever, fighting those calibre of guys, up at those higher weights.

The man was the size of Ricky Hatton.

They should all have obliterated him. And the fact that they didn't, speaks volumes of him.


What would the equivalent fights have been for Spence?

 

Well said, thank you!

 

My defense comes when people either purposely misunderstand the point I'm making or simply create an argument I'm not making just so that they can continue a debate.

I've stated many times that Duran was one of my favorite all time fighters. My original point is that Terence Crawford deserves to be praised in the same conversations as the Leonards, Durans, Hearns, etc.... because of how he dominated the field he was in. Saying that he doesn't deserve it because he hasn't beaten any greats in their prime is belittling him, because those fighters were pushed to be "greats" leading up to the fight with him and he showed he was light years ahead of them. Gamboa was undefeated and multidivisional champion. People belittle that win and claim Crawford beat no one, yet they gave Tank Davis ultimate praise for being Gamboa years later while Gamboa fought on one leg because of the injury in the 2nd round. They praise Devin Haney years after that for beating even older Gamboa. Look at Jaron Ennis's praise he got for beating Dulorme and Avaneysan well after Crawford stopped both. The praise Vergil Ortiz got for beat Kavaliauskas and Madrimov after Crawford. But these guys are nothing when Crawford got victory over them according to the public.

You and your buddy claim "it's not his fault"......about the field he has during his career..... Well, Duh.... But he is in control on how he competes against the field in front of him and clearly he has excelled, it seems, easily.

Now he's being heckled on some platforms for going after Canelo. Who is a naturally bigger puncher than anyone he's faced. I've heard it being called a Clown Show or a Cash Grab, or some other disrespectful notion. But when guys like Amir Khan or Charlo went up to fight Canelo they were "daring to be great"...... They say Crawford is biting off more than he can chew going up 14lbs....As if guys like Roy Jones Jr and B-Hop and other greats have jumped up more for world title opportunities.

I hate these discussions online, I usually have them in person with my peers because it seems as though I'm against one fighter and for the other which isn't the case. I'm just trying to understand how some suggest that Crawford is a "generational talent" but he doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as a Duran.......

I saw someone say in the other thread that Duran's single win over Leonard is better than any win of Crawford's, which I have zero argument against that.....But in the same since, Duran's "No Mas" is much worse than any struggle that Crawford has ever had in his career as well. I have much respect for Duran, but I don't ignore the fact that he LOST to the other fighters his legacy was connect to as the "4 Kings".......He gets more praise for fighting Hearns and being stopped in the 2nd round than Crawford gets praise for dominating an undefeated Errol Spence Jr. because people want to say EJ had the car accident and eye surgery...... A car accident in which he walked away from without a single injury/broken bone/etc....which is a miracle when you watch the film. The second car accident a kid his his truck, he's outside of the car filming bragging about how his car is bullet proof......but somehow, those 2 car accidents are the 'reason' for Crawford being dominate over him?..... Nah, Crawford would have done the same thing to EJ back in 2018, when he first started calling him out, but politics kept PBC and Top Rank from making it happen.

Crawford's accolades are the result of his dominance over the field at which he plays. To belittle that is silly regardless of the 'context' someone tries to throw out there, because you are only required to beat the people who you compete against. Whether he is an ATG is a matter of opinion by his followers and those who like, love, or hate his work in the ring. There's no factual basis to say he is better than any fighter who retired years before he became prominent in the sport. My point is simply, he deserves to be in the conversation because, to me, he looks like an old school era fighter, competing against these social media junkie fighters.......And he's clearly head and shoulders better. And none of his peers who've ever encounter Crawford weather in a bout, sparring, workouts in camp, or simply just mentorship say anything less that him being one of the greatest........ I hold those opinions up higher than the opinions of some random fans with WiFi connections, who've never been in the ring more than likely on a competitive level, let alone been punched by a world class athlete.

And as I stated, those who decide the ultimate approval of being inducted into the Hall of Fame.....something all of those fighters would love to accomplish at the end of their careers.....they also think he is as great as any before him as they've already started his process of being inducted by casting his fists in 2022 with the Hall of Fame Inductee class of that year......... If they were wrong about his greatness which is base on this "paper thin" resume that y'all say Crawford has.....where is the uproar or even comments saying that the IBHOF don't know anything about boxing. Maybe everyone on this thread can run up to New York and have their own version of January 6 over it.......lol.

At the end of the day.... I just love the sport and want every fighter to be respected regardless of the era they are in. As a former competitor and now trainer and mentor, I know how hard it is to accomplish these things that these fighters are accomplishing. Crawford got what he got through his hard work in spite of not having a huge platform early in his career like some of his peers. Finally breaking away from Top Rank helped him to get the fight he wanted for 5 years only for people to belittle it because he was more prepared for the moment than EJ was. His fight vs Canelo is a couple months away and I'm already seeing the excuses building for it..... Canelo is a shell of himself now I guess..... yet, people want him to fight Benavidez, Bivol, Beterbiev, rematch Plant, etc.....(all things I've read on this board).....but Crawford fighting him as a 'smaller fighter'......it's just a clown show.......

 

I appreciate some of what you say here, but I think y ou are still missing much of the main point we are making! Neither myself or Loudon or anyone else in this thread is 'belittling' Crawford - he is 2x undisputed champion with belts at 4 weights and is a GREAT fighter. If he beats Canelo he will be the first 3x Undisputed which is an incredible achievement for any fighter - but context still matters!

When comparing to someone like Duran, a higher standard has to be applied:-

* Given how Crawford doesn't appear undersized against Canelo in the recent face-off, how / we has he been boiling down to face much smaller fighters from 135-154 all these years. Crawford has shown before he walks around at 170-180 lbs.
* When has Crawford been the smaller fighter in the ring?
* When has Terence given up a reach advantage in any fight, like ever?

Duran had a 66 reach, and giving up nearly 10 inches in reach to Hagler, Leonard and Barkely, and a whopping 12 inches to Hearns!

In modern Boxing the 0 has become way to important IMO, and in Terence's favour that is also part of the context.

Sure Crawford is 'daring to be great' now against Canelo (with a significant payday too!), but to be compared to Duran and the other 4 kings, he really needed to do that earlier and more often.

 

First let me say....I'm not necessarily, or actually, I'm not disputing any greatness of Duran one bit. Again, like I said previously, I hate having these conversations/debates via computer because it always seems as though I'm for one fighter and against the other when that isn't what I'm trying to do. I actually went back and read some of this exchange and see that.

Now to address what you've stated and asked......

I'm not sure how Crawford's career isn't belittled when every time an accolade is mentioned by him, this "context" kicks it into the dirt. It would be different if people were saying that fighter(s) he faced weren't competition leading up to the fight, but the total opposite was said, even on this site about Gamboa, Postol, Indongo, Porter, Spence, Madrimov, even guys who were clearly passed their prime in Brook and Khan. Each of those guys in someway were detailed in explanation as to how they were going to "expose" Crawford, and yet after Crawford made quick work of them, he doesn't get praise for it, he gets heckled even more because 'whatever fighter' was this or that. You or Loudon may not be doing it, but I see it often on multiple platforms including this one. And to address some that YOU actually said, suggesting Crawford isn't even in the top 100 of greatest fighters is damn belittling. In no way can someone legit name 100 fighters from all eras that clearly outshine Crawford in the ring.........

My main issue with your stance in the conversation is when you made it seem as though, Crawford shouldn't be mentioned with the same respect as Duran or other greats as if a hypothetical matchup, Crawford would get rolled by all greats from other eras.....Crawford is a different breed from the pool he's competing against. He's proven that time and time again by dominating the top competitors in the divisions he's been in.

Now as far as context.....I understand that no one on his resume is an ATG like Leonard....that was never my argument. My stance was.... the best of the best from today's available talent.... Crawford was head and shoulders better. People WANT to see him fall short like they did so many other dominant greats like Ali, Leonard, Tyson, Floyd, etc..... So much so that people continue to tell themselves that he had a close fight vs Madrimov, but can't articulate what exactly Madrimov did that made it close beyond his late clean punches that clearly didn't stop Crawford from coming forward. Crawford is a talent that true Boxing Fans should appreciate greatly because he handles himself in the ring similar to the fighters we know of the golden era.

Regarding you measures of Crawford......Crawford had never competed above 135lbs until he moved to 140 lbs. Then again at 147lb. Now at 154lbs. That apart of his growth, development and aging. That doesn't mean he was draining to fight smaller opponents. He WAS a small opponent. If he wasn't why was the narrative through his 147lb campaign that he wasn't a "true welterweight". He's "light in the a..." And a bunch of other things that were promote and/or served as excuses on why guys like Thurman, Spence, & Porter refused to negotiate a fight with Crawford without being mandated and/or backed into a corner of not have any other option. I don't think he's ever had a reach disadvantage....but that doesn't necessarily make you the bigger fighter.....I mean there's a guy by the name of Fundora who is taller and/or longer than some Cruiserweights.....are we going to call him a weight bully because of his reach?.......

Crawford has spent the last 9/10 months physically preparing for a possible and now official match up vs Canelo. Yes Crawford naturally walked around at 180lb or so.... Changing up your diet and workouts and such can easily put 20+ lbs on an athlete so that they fare better vs competition. Football players do it all the time when they go from HS to college and sometimes from college to the pros. The other thing is.... Canelo is not a huge guy himself. He's been the smaller guy in many of his match ups due to his reach. Many forgot that he competed as a welterweight at one point in time to eventually getting up to 175lbs. Now sitting at 168lbs.

I brought up the "daring to be great" label because that is not what many are suggesting Crawford is doing. So what he's getting a major payday..... Does he not deserve it. But in the same breath, why are we watching these fighters' pockets so heavily. With Turki at his side...Crawford could have taken much less risks to make $75M-$100M or whatever is projected to be made with this fight. Fundora, Spence rematch, Ennis, Charlo, or even a pass his prime Thurman can get him $20M because Thurman showed he can still sale a fight. Crawford has damn near begged for match ups against Manny, Thurman, Spence, & now Canelo because he WANTS the best. But they don't want to deal with him.....WHY?......If anyone today was to get a win over Crawford, you couldn't tell me that wouldn't be the best win of their career from 147-154lbs.......There isn't a bigger win, yet, these guys came up with ever reason not to go in that direction. And Crawford doesn't claim that every fighter is afraid of him as his self promotion like that guy out of Philly name Boots. Crawford just moves on to the next.

Is that not what we would have expected from our greats of the past. Thus my argument, he deserves to be spoken in the same breath as the others we marvel of the past. That's all.

 

Wasn't your loverboy Errol Spence supposed to dominate and ko Terence Crawford? Wasn't he the aside and younger and bigger and everything? What have the TC naysayers done for us lately?

 

JusABoxinFan,

Terence certainly deserves praise.

No, it is absolutely not belittling him by stating that he doesn’t deserve the same level of praise as the ‘Fab Four’

Stop being so defensive and sensitive.

Even Floyd Mayweather doesn’t get the credit that they get.

Why?

Because as great he was, he simply didn’t face the same calibre of fighters.

It’s just that simple.

He has excelled. And he gets credit for what he’s done.

He deserves huge credit fir chasing down the Canelo fight. Huge.

In terms of passing the eye test and analysing his skill set, he’s certainly great. But as of yet, we can’t be ranking him higher.

He gets the huge praise for fighting Hearns, because Hearns was in his absolute prime, and it was just a complete size and stylistic mismatch.

You could be right about Terence being able to have beaten any version of Errol. But I have to question myself his condition for the fight.

Again, nobody is belittling it.

Again, you have been defensive.

If I say that his accolades on paper look great, but when you apply context, they’re not that great, that isn’t belittling him.

Now his accolades really jump out at you. Because it’s so rare. And he absolutely deserves praise. But no matter what the official accolades are, or how many belts you have around your waist, you are judged by who you have fought.

I’m not belittling him. But despite his accolades, he has a weak resume compared to many other greats, because he didn’t face or beat any prime ATG’s like Duran did.

We’ve discussed this before.

The accolades are bright and shiny. But they cannot trump who was beaten and at what point.

Somebody might have 25 title defences like Hopkins, Louis and Golovkin. But it doesn’t automatically mean that they have superior wins/resumes, to a fighter who might not have had a title reign at all.

I wouldn’t say that it was paper thin. But it certainly isn’t anywhere near being extremely good-great.

That’s great that he’s got the exposure.

Again, he deserves huge praise for the Canelo fight. And I can’t wait for it. For me, it’s such an intriguing fight.

 

I think Crawford gets on his bicycle and boxes.

And he wins via running.

it’s boxing right?