What will it take to dislodge Ali & Louis from 1&2?

Was Vitaly nr 1 when he faced Lewis? That's a great win, in any case, and probably the strongest single argument for Lewis.

 

Holmes beat more ranked opponents, I think, and he never lost in his prime. He also looked better against common opponents so if Lewis resume is better, his wins must be better and more dominant.

More dominant wins? Yeah, that seems right. Mercer was razor close, but otherwise all his wins were clear with a good share of early KO's. Holmes also won most of his fights conclusively in the end, but he had more close decisions and more tough fights.

Better wins? Vitaly stands out as better than anything Holmes had, but fairly even after that, considering that Holy and Tyson both were quite a bit past their primes.

So in balance I'd have to agree with @janitor that it's close, but I probably still think the scales falls in Holmes's favour.

 

Holmes was more dominant. He was not knocked out by challengers for the title. Lewis was twice.
Holmes had close wins against Witherspoon and Williams, which some score the other way. But at worst, you'd have to view them as close losses. At age 33 and age 35, well into double figures of his title defences (I think Williams was his 20th !).
Holmes actually dominated such challengers as Trevor Berbick, Leon Spinks, David Bey .... all were rated very highly at the time, within top 5. Cooney was rated highly too, #2 by RING magazine, and Holmes broke him down systematically.
People talk about Shavers knocking Holmes down in his title challenge, but less about how Holmes dominated Shavers in an eliminator fight in 1978, shortly after Shavers had given the champion Ali a very very close fight.

Four of Holmes's challengers (Weaver, Berbick, Witherspoon, Smith) went on to win versions of the world title after he defeated them. In fact, two of them account for the WBC belts and WBA belts Tyson won in 1986/'87. Berbick and Smith.
Three were title-holders or former champions (Norton, L.Spinks, Ali) who were holding the title or had held it within the past 3 years.

Even a fighter like Ossie Ocasio was coming off wins over well-regarded Jimmy Young, considered the best boxer of the day.
Holmes destroyed him and relegated him to a 'bum' level challenger, and sent him off to a cruiserweight career.

 

If you were responding to me, I was saying that Lewis's wins probably were more dominant (but maybe should be clarified a bit). That doesn't necessarily translate into him being more dominant, as he was KO'd twice as you say.

 

Holmes resume and career is better than Lewis.

 

Yes. I think Holmes was possibly more dominant in both senses. He has such a long winning run that people perhaps are drawn to a few fights where he was floored (Shavers 2 and Snipes ..... the latter being very one-sided outside of the KD) or the close decisions (Norton, Witherspoon and Williams) or otherwise 'struggled', (such as the tough fight with Weaver).
Lewis, for his part, had Mercer (close decision), Holyfield 2 (close decision), Vitali (very tough fight), and was behind on points against hard hitting Bruno (tough fight) and was sent reeling in all directions in the opening round against Briggs (only the ropes kept him from being floored) .... as well as the losses to McCall and Rahman.

 

Holmes did not do better against common opponents.

 

I would argue that Holmes was not more dominant than Lewis because Holmes tended to miss most of the big fights that were available.

 

Holmes didn't get knocked out twice during his championship reign...by a couple of just-above-mediocre boxers.

No offense to Lewis fans, I have him alternating from #5 to 6 ATG. He deserves his place there for sure.

 

I think Holmes' run was long but kind of mediocre. He needed some combination of Dokes, Coetzee, Thomas, Page, Tubbs, Tate, Witherspoon and Williams rematch, and Michael Spinks W to really be in contention for the three spot or better.

 

Ali and Cooney were "the big fights" in terms of money.
None of Holmes's rival title-holders established themselves long enough to attract much interest. Holmes signed to fight Coetzee in '84 but that fell through.
The most significant rival title-holder to Holmes was probably Weaver, who he beat already, shortly before Weaver gained the WBA title.
Holmes had wins over Norton, Weaver, Ali, L.Spinks, Berbick, Witherspoon, Smith .... seven men who were world champions/title-holders in the years 1978-'86.

 

It's very interesting to me how many future champs Larry beat...almost as though a little of his greatness rubbed off on them (kind of like how the same rubbed off on him from Ali, Norton, and Frazier). Didn't seem to work for Cooney though lol.

 

These are excuses. Witherspoon was green and never got a rematch, Smith wasn't very highly regarded, Spinks...you're reaching. Ali...you lost me.

Had he beaten Dokes, Thomas, and gone 1/2 with Michael Spinks, it would've helped his case a lot. I'm not talking about making the most money

 

I agree. #10 is absurdly low imo. I also see no reasonable way to rank Holyfield above Holmes, let alone by 7 spots but to each his own.

 

No. I haven't made any excuses. I don't think excuses are needed.
I was responding to your post, you seem to think Holmes should have fought a few guys he didn't fight. I point out he faced guys who were as good or better, he beat loads of relevant names of his era.

True, Witherspoon was a close fight. He probably deserved a rematch.

He became WBA champ in 1986. He wasn't highly regarded but none of the WBA champs were particularly highly regarded. Smith won the title by KO from Witherspoon, lost it by decision to prime Tyson.

Leon Spinks was champion in 1978.
Ali was champion in 1978-'79.
These are men who held titles during Holmes's era.

Of course, if he had beaten Dokes and Thomas he would have an even stronger resume. But missing them probably doesn't mean much at all. Thomas lost to Berbick, FFS. Dokes barely got past Weaver with the draw in the rematch, and did nothing much after that.
I think Holmes arguably won the Spinks rematch anyway.

I think it's a stretch to say Holmes needed to beat guys like Greg Page (who lost to Berbick, Weaver, Bey and Tubbs while Holmes was champ) or Michael Dokes, that they were "the big fights".

Lennox Lewis missed out on big fights more so than Holmes did.