What will it take to dislodge Ali & Louis from 1&2?

Yeah, I remember those. Weren't they with Choklab?

 

He was one of plenty going right back to 2005 or even earlier i reckon. He was just the most recent probably. It's funny Goo and i had some serious discussion over the topic but he actually took it all in and made his own mind up and now we basically align. He's another very open minded and fair poster. Things like that make the time spent on long winded posts so much more worth it.

 

Good ol' Boxrec:

"That's it," Holmes said after he earned $1.525 million in raising his record to 47-0. He had been saying for weeks that Bey would be his 18th and final title defense. However, he has given the world's promoters until June 9—the seventh anniversary of his 15-round decision over Ken Norton, which won him the WBC title—to come up with enough gold to change his course.

"I want a lot of money and no more of those big hitters like Tim Witherspoon and Mike Weaver," said Holmes, narrowing the field to almost nobody. "I've paid my dues, and if they want me back, they've got to give me little people I can beat on without getting hurt."

https://boxrec.com/media/index.php/Larry_Holmes_vs._David_Bey

 

And Holmes was ready to fight Coetzee in mid-1984. And faced Bey in March 1985.
That's hardly avoiding the top dogs either.
Like I said, Ali is greater, he's the gold standard. But what Holmes was doing isn't a far cry off what Ali was doing.

Young went on to beat Foreman 11 months later in The Ring's Fight of the Year. Ali still didn't fight him.
Certainly Holmes should have given rematches, but Ali shouldn't get a complete pass on that score (or Lennox Lewis, for that matter, regarding Mercer).
You might be able to argue Holmes was the worst but I'm not convinced he's done anything unique or extraordinary in his conduct. His blunt openness seems to be his primary crim here, and got him the negative press at the time, not least because they knew he might go for Marciano's record by taking a few soft touches ..... and possibly the fact you're a chronic Greg Page fan magnifies the significance of this minor period in the Holmes saga.

Ken Norton only ever received one title shot at Ali, so a rematch would not have been freezing everyone out.
Ali took a 9-month break from boxing after the Norton fight and returned to fight then-unknown Alfredo Evangelista, who was coming off a 8-round decision loss to Lorenzo Zanon.
The first two Ali-Norton fights were not world title fights, and you could say the only reason they rematched at all is because Norton won the first one.
Norton followed up the 1976 with three wins in 1977 .... beating highly rated Bobick and Young, and an inferior fighter in Lorenzo Zanon (who was at least as good as Evangelista anyway, and had the decision against him and beat him again in '79 too).
Ali did faced Shavers in 1977, to be fair, and then started 1978 with a defence against Leon Spinks.
It's hard to argue that Ali didn't "owe" Norton another fight. In fact the WBC seemed to show quite a lot of leeway until eventually stripping not Ali but Leon and awarding Norton their title.

This really isn't much different to what Holmes was doing from late '83 to Sept '85.

That's true. But you can find several fighters in the ratings throughout the Holmes era that Holmes defeated recently or would go on to defeat.
The worst Ring end of year rating's for Holmes I can see is 1983, where the contenders are
1. Coetzee
2. Page
3. Dokes
4. Thomas
5. Witherspoon
6. Weaver
7. Bey
8. Tate
9. Berbick
10. Bruno

I use this ratings only as a rough guide, I don't consider them sacred or anything, But Holmes looks bad for this year because he didn't ever face any of the top 4 there, and didn't particularly want to. However, he agreed to fight the #1 in his next fight but the fight fell through. He has wins over 4 of the top 10 even in these ratings.
You can go through the entire Holmes reign and find about 5 of the 10 in all those lists that he beat or was soon to beat.

The Ring ratings for end of 1979, he's listed as one of the top 10 contenders (the title was vacant according to The Ring), and of the other 9 contenders he beat 7 of them in the 1978-'82 era.

That is correct. But Ali put him on the map and made him a viable soft touch for a keep-busy defence by the fact that he couldn't put him away in 15 rounds.

Ali is greater than Holmes. We all pretty much agree on that.

Holmes said what he said. But I rate them on what they did.

 

That quote was actually one of the best of them

There were so many others too. That's what used to be frustrating and lead me to posting quote after quote but some would of course still bury their head in the sand and refuse to believe. It makes me sad that a guy like Marciano is so heavily scrutinized yet others (not just Holmes of course) get glazed over or ignored.

 

Rocky's reign was relatively short and the era probably wasn't the best, but he, if anyone, was the gold standard in taking on the best out there. The only blip was perhaps bypassing Valdes, but he made up for it in the next fight by taking on the guy that KO'd Valdes - Moore.

Give me reigns like Rocky's every time, in terms of taking on the most deserving, and I'd be very happy.

 

Well, I'm not saying what klompton's saying. I'm saying Monzon definitely did dump a belt rather than face the best qualified challenger.
When he did eventually fight Valdes, there is reason to believe Valdes was somewhat depleted. Whether he had was effective or not his career had faced a serious interruption. Regardless, Monzon 'ducked' Valdes when Valdes was the #1 contender.
The Valdes-Cohen fight is on youtube. Yes, Valdes did okay. Not sure if Cohen was any good though.

Holmes has far more to answer for, yes. But I consider the situations to be comparable.
Holmes was looking to wind down and retire too, or go for the Marciano record or whatever.
Holmes fighting 4 challengers in 11 months at age 35 isn't bad. Smith, Bey, Williams and Spinks really weren't that bad.

Yes.

This content is protected

 

But everyone in boxing regarded Holmes as the champion, not dependent on whether the WBC said he was or not.
Holmes established himself over the years as champion. Whether you want to call it "lineal" or "real champion" or "the man", that's where Holmes more or less was in the minds of people who followed boxing.

Likewise, Lennox Lewis retained the right to call himself "undisputed champion" when he gave up the WBA and IBF titles, because no one serious really disputed it.

 

Bey was never a "top dog" whether he beat Page or not.

Lewis - Mercer wasn't even a title match so there's no championship pride or acumen involved there.

I would counter that by saying you're a chronic Lewis detractor and the only reason i entered the debate was to give Lewis a better hearing and level out your Holmes balance vs Lewis.

I lost passion for the whole Page thing many years ago. I got the whole forum going on him way back in the day, it was great. If some spud is really banging down on him i might post but he's not in the threads much. Everything i have posted is factual i believe.

I think we've gone about as far as we can on the back and forth. not much can get me to post at real length nowadays and i think some of my longer posts in the last handful of years were with you. I try to stay away from them and you probably get sick of them as well or just need a break from this side as you seem to come and go a bit with respect to overly active posting.

And that's fair enough. People have to rate on their own particular importance of criteria.

I'm more keen now on knowing how your username came about and Rodrigo's missing/badly mangled/injured/recovered hand.

 

Great stuff mate. This has turned out to be a real enjoyable thread.

 

ABSOLUTELY. My point still stands tho.

 

Monzon did dump one belt yes.

Did he face a serious interruption tho? He injured his hand in 75 but fought in the 5th and 8th month that year defending his title no less. I believe he broke it after the Robles bout but he fought Cohen 7 months later which is pretty standard between bouts/title fights.

The thing is over and above Cohen being any good is that his hand held up fine after belting Cohen in the scone multiple times.

Again i am open to any real proof he was supposedly seriously hampered, absolutely.

i'd also love to know the ins and outs of Monzon not facing Rodrigo when he should have.

They were ok but there was better out there and all were big underdogs.

Love it! I actually purchased the DVD of this a year or so ago to rewatch it and have it on the shelf. I will watch it every few years i reckon. Morlocks will smile when he see's this

 

He was rated highly at the time.

Still, Lewis was the #1 contender with the WBC at the time, and when he was champion in 1997 Mercer's promoters challenged him with an offer but for whatever reason Lewis faced other fighters. I don't hold that against Lewis's ranking at all anyway. But since Mercer is regarded as one of his best opponents these days, it could be regarded as relevant.

To be honest, I made a cast iron case for Holmes that hasn't been dented at all. Based on my criteria, anyway.

I think many agree with me that Holmes doing what he did in Lewis's era (clear win over Mercer, close loss to McCall months after McCall had defeated Lewis, etc. ....) and the fact that Holmes beat tons of relevant contenders and wasn't knocked out by relevant (or irrelevant) ones, is solid enough.
I don't care if Holmes ducked Page or Lewis ducked Byrd.
They both beat better fighters than that, and neither Page or Byrd had established themselves as essential challengers that needed to be put to rest.

Yeah, I agree with all that. It get addictive being but tedious being drawn into long back-and-forths. It's been a pleasue too though, good sir.

 

Good on you mate!!! It's always very difficult debating you as you are always very tight with your points. When we do have the rare long one it's great we can keep it very civil with only the odd fun dig in good jest.