What would Stiverne have to do for you to accept him as a legitmate champ

Yes there are better opponents in the division but none seemed interested in scoring significant victories to be rated highly with the WBC. Surely politics were also involved in that case but Arreola impressed big time with his conditioning and victory over Mitchell leading up to the rematch against Stiverne.

Yes I do believe he did enough to be considered a proper champion. He was already #1 for nearly(or was it over?) a year in line to face Vitali for his title. He shocked everyone by beating Arreola(the first fight) in a tough legitimate fight. Usually politics are involved when it comes to rankings but Stiverne earned his position in the ring rather than promotional/political advantages even though a faded Don King was in his corner.

A paper champion in my opinion is someone that hasn't scored a single major victory getting a title shot out of pure corruption/manipulation in the rankings(something Don King was a master of). It's like when King paid Lennox Lewis to drop his IBF title to clear way for his fighter(Chris Byrd) to fight for it. Another example is when Baldomir defeated Judah for the WBC/WBA/IBF titles yet only paid the sanctioning fees for the WBC, therefore leaving the other belts vacant while he(the official lineal/main man in the division) remained active. After that, Mayweather vs Judah for the IBF title was purely a paper title. Kostya Tszyu vacating his titles while remaining active also left the rest of the titles as paper. Arturro Gatti(Rest in Peace) vs Branco was for a paper title, the main man in the division was obviously Tszyu. Many other examples in similar cases are out there.

 

Probably not, because he's arguably the best middleweight and he's been AVOIDED by Martinez and now by Cotto.

 

He won his WBC title after Calzaghe refused to fight him and moved up in weight to fight senior citizens. Is it his problem the main man didn't want to fight him?, the answer is clearly no. Froch also fought Pascal for the title, a solid first class opponent in a brutal epic fight. There's no way in hell anyone would consider Froch a paper champion.

 

Klitschko is the champ and to become legit you need to beat him. The WBC title isn't meaningless, but it doesn't make you the champ - just a titleholder.

 

RE: Froch, he is not a paper champion but he is not THE champion in his division either - he's a very good titleholder and a top fighter. That's it.

 

Calzaghe was gone from super middleweight 2 years before froch won a title there lmfao

Froch was still fighting at British level at the time calzaghe had his last fight at 168

Why would a guy who holds almost every belt at that weight fight a guy still at domestic level?

It would be the equivalent of saying wladimir klitschko is currently ducking Gary Cornish lmfao

 

I really wouldn't consider the WBA's "World" version, which is nothing but a clear cheap attempt to make extra money on their part, with the WBC title nor would I even dare compare the two.

Right now, Wladimir and Stiverne are on top. There will always be a case made by fans that challengers are better than champions in predictions and whatnot but till proven otherwise factually in the ring they both remain above the rest. Many people are picking Thurman to beat Brook, this doesn't mean that he should be rated above the actual champion.

 

I thought you were referring to his first World Title victory, which is obviously not paper by any means.

He won the IBF title beating a reigning champion(Bute) so that can't possibly be considered paper. Bute won that title beating a champion(Berrio) who fought Stieglitz for the vacant title after Calzaghe vacated, again it wasn't their problem Calzaghe vacated to move up in weight and fight senior citizens. The WBA title Froch holds is paper because it's the joke of a belt designed by the WBA which is their nonsensical "World" or whatever version. THE WBA champion in the division is Ward for beating Kessler in 2009. Again, Kessler won that title after Calzaghe vacated and took off.

Froch's second WBC title win against Abraham came after Kessler dropped the title and left the Super Six tournament due to serious injury. That win can't be considered "paper" either when the true Champion was "officially" retired.

 

Who else at the time was worth taking Arreola's position in the WBC rankings?.

I wouldn't say Brook was more established than Thurman to be honest. Thurman has 24 fights and wins over Karass, Quintana, Chaves and Diaz. Brook has/had 32 fights with his biggest wins being Jones x2 and Senchenko.