What would Tyson's career look like if he had more discipline?

Yeah, if we're going to use the same reasoning when assessing Tyson's prime wins as many do for his prime loss, there won't be many left worth mentioning.

 

Please don't say that, you're trying to tell me that angelic pre-88 Tyson took part in career ending activities such as staying out while 3 AM??

It's funny how Tyson fanatics completely ignore the fact that even Douglas wasn't in top condition and been pretty badly ill and needed medication before the Tyson fight.

 

Lol, you have such a hard-on for Tyson.

 

Tyson clearly f-ucked him till he loved him

 

lol still no GF and no Job?

 

I think there are differences between Floyd's situation and Tyson if we're honest. Tyson's a head case and the circumstances that occurred in his life outside the ring along with the dismemberment of his original team - The team that got him to the top all had an impact. Call it excuse making, nonsense or whatever you best deem at as being. But the man who fought from the Douglas fight onward was not the same fighter who crippled the division in the 80's.

 

Yeah I **** your wife and pimp out your mother, two birds with one stone and all that...

 

I also think there are differences between Floyd and Tyson. I only brought up Floyd and Ali as examples of that a troubled personal life doesn't automatically lead to lost focus inside the ring.

And I also agree that Tyson likely became less dedicated in his training. I just think too much is made out of it. Dominant champions often ease off a bit and enjoy the niceties of life, but many treat Tyson as a unique case.

I personally think he had several very impressive performances after Spinks and even after Douglas. I don't buy into the theory that he had irrevocably lost something already at that point. He was probably a bit more inconsistent in his preparations, but not much more dramatic than that.

And if Douglas had edged him in a hard-fought affair I would think it fair to say that a better prepared Tyson probably would have won. But it wasn't close at all. Douglas dominated him. Beat him up, really. A prepared Tyson might still have won (like Louis did in the Schmeling rematch), but it's far from a given. Remember, Douglas was the only one who really troubled him until Holyfield. The guy that crushed Williams and Stewart and badly beat Ruddock didn't seem faded at all to me.

Actually, take away the Douglas loss and I doubt anyone would say that Tyson faded significantly, if at all, after Spinks and before prison. So it becomes a piece of circular logic: "Douglas beating Tyson so soundly is proof of Tyson's decline and if not for that decline Tyson wouldn't have lost".

I don't care for that line of reasoning much at all.

 

Yet another enlightened and intelligent comment from the boxing expert known as Foxy! Keep it up Foxy.

 

Fair points. Only it is visible even in the Ruddock, Stewart and Williams fights that Tyson was seeking that one punch oppertunity rather than employing the combinations and setting up his openings as he did before. For some of those opponents it worked like a charm. For others not so much as obviously seen. Another point to be considered is that following his defeat to Douglas, Team Tyson II was mostly terminated and long time trainer Rich Giachetti was brought in to replace them.. Tyson also knew he had to get back on his feet to win back the title and get that lucrative fight with Holyfield.. So even though he was never the same fighter post Douglas, a small revival was apparent.

 

Tysons high work rate, short dimensions in reach and height, reflex dependant fighting style made it imperative that he trained up to a specific acceptable threshold intensity level for his fights especially against good opponents.

As his training and prep for fights slacked off, it is no surprise he lost to douglas and later holyfield.

Apart from the training, another thing people under estimate is that Tyson with the catskills team actually studied his opponents properly before stepping in the ring against them.

He fell haywire when all this discipline was lost.

 

Williams I thought was a perfect, if very short, performance. He knew he dropped his right when jabbing and looked for that. Yes, it was one punch, but a carefully and skillfully set up one rather than just looking to blindly land a big one.

Against Stewart he did become a bit wildl, but that was after already having him out on his feet with a perfect one-two I think it was. He became a bit impatient when he was totally in control and the outcome no longer was in any doubt.

The first Ruddock fight is one of his very best imo. Better than for example his efforts against Tucker and Thomas imo. Ruddock turns into a spoiler early on, mainly trying to hold and survive. Because of that Tyson can't get off many combinations, but he shows patience and works the body beautifully and as soon as Ruddock opens up and looks to actually make a fight of it Tyson finishes him off with as sharp a punching as ever.

Because of the Douglas defeat people tend to read a lot into every second Tyson didn't throw blistering four-five punch combinations in these fights, completely forgetting that there are plenty of such moments also against Tucker, Thomas, Holmes and I'd suspect also Smith (haven't bothered to watch the fight in whole, though, so that's only a qualified guess).

 

It's a bit ridiculous to say that after the fact, though, when actually both outcomes were anything but suspected at the time. Both were huge upsets, Douglas perhaps the biggest of all times. The loss to Douglas were actually the very definition of surprise.

 

1. Carl Williams was always subject to getting decked with left hooks.. Jesse Ferguson, James Tillis and an aged Weaver all dropped him with that punch. The difference is that he was given a chance to continue against those guys and even came back to beat two of them.. He rose to at the count of nine against Tyson, and Randy Neuman waved off the contest leaving Williams angered.

2. Tyson's win over Stewart was impressive, but also against a vulnerable opponent who was always outmatched at the world level.

3. I disagree that Ruddock was one of Mike's best performances. He won fair enough and deserved the win, but also the result of another premature stoppage and one where he again spent most of the evening seeking the knockout.. Against Tucker and Thomas he created oppertunities and even showed patience when the knockouts didn't come right away or in some cases even at all. He took a big man in Tucker who was undefeated and prime 12 rounds and only gave up about 3 of those rounds.. Not something that I see a later version of Tyson doing much of.

4. Tyson's disengagement in the Douglas fight was as evident as the poor work that was being done in his corner. No sound advice was given.. His head lowered during every break between rounds.. And a disolved bag of water used to treat his swelling.. Angelo Dundee and Gil Clancy ( who were no lovers of Tyson ) were interviewed and agreed that this was some of the worst corner work they had ever seen in a championship fight, and also concurred that The champ did not seem like himself... I agree with Gil and Angelo..

 

1. Yep, it was a premature stoppage, but you can't fault Tyson for that. He played his part perfectly in taking advantage of William's flaw.

2. Yep, but how many others stopped him like that? Not Foreman or even Holyfield. Did anyone?

3. We just widely disagree about the Ruddock performance then. I watched it again recently and was, as I said, very impressed by Tyson and surprised that he looked so good. At the time I thought it was a premature stoppage, but not when I watched it recently, really. Anyhow, it's bit of a moot point since Ruddock was getting brutalized.

4. Yes, the corner work was terrible, but had nothing really to do with the outcome. Tyson was thoroughly outmatched on the night. And there's few who seem like themselves when they lose handily, but crucially neither of those knowledgeable men (or anyone else) had predicted anything like the outcome. Or even pointed to a clear decline in Tyson.* That's the thing, no one did before the fight as far as I know. But after the fight it's all of a sudden a given.

*Compare that to Cus D'Amato pointing to clear signs of decline in Ali before the first Quarry fight.