What's stopping "old school" coaches from taking over boxing?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by cross_trainer, Dec 3, 2021.


  1. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    Question for those of an old school persuasion. Inspired by The Arc of Boxing:

    If forgotten techniques, lost arts, old school training, and 1920s approaches to matchmaking really, genuinely produced monsters back in the day...

    ...what's stopping modern boxing historian/coaches from hanging a shingle, reviving older approaches, and riding their superior insights into lucrative coaching glory?

    As Silver pointed out, there are something like 90+ titles today. Unless the market is totally irrational and only rewards inferior coaches regardless of results, surely you could find a promising lad, train him up into an old school monster, and steamroll one of the weakest modern ABC champs you consider amateurish?
     
  2. IntentionalButt

    IntentionalButt Guy wants to name his çock 'macho' that's ok by me

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    Not every fighter is a created-equal lump of (nothing scatological; that is a Taoist concept meaning something like "unhewn stone" ...tabula rasa is a near approximate of what I mean, if you prefer Western languages)

    To make this kind of research scientifically worthwhile you'd need a slate of proven naturally talented fighters (inexperienced amateurs with tourney success or high KO rates, for instance) to buy into the old-school coaches' teaching.
     
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  3. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    As an experiment, I agree.

    As a business opportunity, it would be odd if the blueprints for a clearly superior product are just sitting in public domain, unused.

    If it really was this enormous advantage, surely there's someone capable of leveraging that knowledge into better coaching. Just in the late 90s / early 2000s alone, Brock and Calzaghe were both trained by fathers who had little to no prior experience, so I don't think barriers to entry are crippling here.
     
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  4. Gazelle Punch

    Gazelle Punch Boxing Addict Full Member

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    The most major problem with boxing now is simple every gym thinks their the ****…every single one of them. They all have a few tricks up their sleeve but no one communicates nor gives away to many tricks on line and there isn’t a set handbook for this **** lol.
    Some coaches only teach one damn style (you see a lot of fighters unable to adapt to different situations more then in the past).
    The competition for money is tough so I get it. They have to bad mouth the competition so you think there better.
    Most “old time” fighters had the benefit of having dozens of gyms in there area. Everyone around them knew a little boxing and would teach them things. Today gyms are few and far between and if you’re stuck w a bad one in your area you won’t be seeing much talent come out of there. And the less people know about it the more skills go.
    So to answer your question old time boxing is all around you already. The skill sets and tricks are spread out amongst gyms all around the world. Mayweather and Wlad learned their craft well and really that’s what it’s about just studying the game learn every trick in the book.
     
  5. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    Although I don't know how many of the special tricks they've preserved, there is collectively a ton of old school professional material in the various books written (or ghost-written, but posed for) by elite professional fighters and trainers from the 1920s to the 1970s. Including one supposedly by Goldman and Marciano, which I have not seen.

    There are also "learn to box" newsreels from British Pathe and others from the 20s thru 40s/early 50s, where they'll drag some prominent fighter in front of their cameras to show a few tricks.

    Assuming that the tricks from 70 years ago are the same as you'd want today, the elusive "set handbook" for the pro game could probably be cribbed and compiled. At least in terms of rote knowledge.

    And that's not even including video series by Roach, Atlas, and Wilder's coach, which are all more recent and presumably reflect pro experience.
     
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  6. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    Old school was fighting every week for low purses in local clubs. Doesn't sound very lucrative to me
     
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  7. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    If the typical end product is -- as some like Silver claim -- people who can make the likes of Vernon Forrest look like amateurs, then that intermediate clubfighting step is just a temporary investment.
     
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  8. IntentionalButt

    IntentionalButt Guy wants to name his çock 'macho' that's ok by me

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    @cross_trainer

    This might be a dumb question, since obviously you found its meat rich enough to make the subject of a thread - but as far as purchases go, compared with other books on the sport, do you recommend Arc?
     
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  9. NoNeck

    NoNeck Pugilist Specialist

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    Because these young punks ain’t tough enough.
     
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  10. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    I find it closely fits my own needs and interests at the moment, which focus on broad cross era comparisons. I do think it takes its argument too far. That's said, I like that the book sticks to its guns rather than retreating into the generic "every era is equally special" approach that seems primarily designed to allow for exciting versus debates.

    So if you're interested in reading one unusually well argued variant of the case for Golden Age superiority, I highly recommend it.
     
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  11. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    But the platform doesn't really exist. It cannot easily be done with just isolated individuals. It requires a structural change.

    And making Vernon Forrest look like an amateur doesn't equate to making more money than can be made in whatever ways Mayweather made his money, for example. And Mayweather is as good a model as can be for the modern era.
    Making an MMA fighter or a YouTuber look like what they are will suffice.
     
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  12. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    They don't understand teh modern nutritions
     
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  13. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    Having said that, there are probably tons of fairly obvious examples of where a more "old school" approach paid real dividends in recent decades.
    In the case of Mayweather and Toney etc. they certainly did credit their skills to early instruction from old school trainers and/or study of old school fighters.
     
  14. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    There have always been maverick coaches, who do things very differently to the majority, and seem to get results with it.

    The bottom line, is that the talent that the coach has to work with, will always be the most critical ingredient.
     
  15. Malik Shabazz

    Malik Shabazz Member banned Full Member

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    Most of those styles, techniques and such have been beaten out by the new stuff