What's the longest/most complex series of baits/counters you've seen in a fight?

great topic.

Leonard--Benetiz comes to mind. It seemed liked there were just huge amounts of time where neither guy was going to take any sort of chance throwing the first punch. but those eyes were like saucers watching the opponent.


I love the way Jimmy Young feinted Ali from the beginning of the fight at round 1. He was feinting a master & nobody else had really been effective playing that feint game with Ali. As a matter of fact, it was a road to defeat to even try. And Young was firing off a real nice straight right hand that was landing clean. It must have had some kind of snap on it because Jimmy feinted Ali all over the place for the rest of the fight. He had Muhammad lunging and falling in and that was something I did not think was humanly possible. It was 1 thing to outfeint and outslick Lyle, but Jimmy had a tougher time getting him to fall for feints than Muhammad. Incredible.

Another guy that did feints and was never given credit for it was Mugabi. That early Mugabi. All he did was stand in ring center and play the feint game. He'd miss by 2 feet with like a lead left uppercut or something not seen and it would go whistling by. But it scared the other guy and then they would do the feint thing in reaction. Then, Mugabi would counter that and the fight would be over. A really interesting tactic by a slugger and actually pretty shrewd. but that kind of attack diminishes severly when those reflexes go--you have to have brilliant reflexes to play the feint game, don't you?

 

Another guy that was great at it was Chris Eubank. Then you add in those other tactics of Chris at ring center or staring at the audience instead of going to his corner, etc. He's another guy you cannot play the feint game with and just go in an punch and stay busy like Collins and Calzaghe.

I really wanted to see him in there against Leonard at 160, when it was discussed a little bit. 2 feinters, but I thought just like Camacho did--Chris would outdo him fairly easily and win the fight handily. How would Ray handle those antics and taunting from a big 160 pounder like Eubank, at that time when his reflexes had slowed?

 

I remember a while ago McGrain posted footage of Kid Gavilan and pointed out his long term 'trapping' strategy, I just cant remember the opponents name. Its the guy that was winning and gets stopped, and he also got bludgeoned by Giardello in one round. Theres a film about him aswell by Stanley Kubrick if I mind right too. Just cant remember his name.

Anyway that was an interesting feinting strategy.

 

Walter Cartier, I'm assuming. What's all this about a Kubrick film in his honour?

Edit: Found it. Thanks for that. Will be watching.

 

Thats the one.

The films fairly interesting, a nice look at Cartiers prep for a fight.

 

Call me Captain Obvious, but Goddamn, Burley looks good on film.

Sometimes, those Smith feints looked more like him not pulling the trigger as Burley's footwork was so good he was out of range in an instant.

 

Evander Holyfield and Mike Tyson has a couple of pretty long baiting sessions.

All night long, Evander wanted to lead Mike into a big left hook, but after the knockdown in round 6, Mike wouldn't bite an taking extreme angles for right hands.

 

Yes I do, and superb analysis!

I did read a couple of articles crediting John for his sliding, slipping, feinting and countering around the time of the Hagler challenge, and I think this post articulates something of why Mugabe's punch was seemingly the first thing he lost in the ring (whereas it's usually the legs). Marv's punch resistance was just ridiculous, and I can't help but wonder what was going through John's mind when his bombs seemingly failed to make an impression. (Previously, only Hard Rock Green appeared disdainful of Mugabe's power among those bouts I saw, but unfortunately got himself turned into a bloody mess, like he'd been by Fletcher.)

 

I always thought that Roy Jones Jr was excellent at baiting in order to set up his counters...another that comes to mind is the third Pacquiao/Marquez fight, those guys had studied each other so much that they cancelled out each other's offensive rythym to a degree.

Excellent topic btw...

 

Another guy not mentioned is Ricardo Lopez. The thing with him that even made it harder to believe is that he did not do it every fight, like the rest of the top feinters always relied on it. For certain styles, Lopez was an absolute master with those feints. Plus, he was the rare breed capable of throwing every punch with effectiveness.

Floyd Mayweather is another good one. but I always thought guys like him and Eubank and Jones for that matter, used it as a pace setter for the fight. Then, they stay on their pitchers mound. The best way to beat them was to stay extremely busy and not to play that outside feint game. So far, Floyd has not really matched up with guys capable of doing that. Johnson sure did it to Jones though and Calzaghe and Collins did it to Eubank. but guys capable of handling feints don't grow on trees and are a rare breed themselves.

It just goes to show there are even different feinting styles and degrees of effectiveness using it. Sal Sanchez was good at it as well, but he seemed to resort to it after the initial rounds. Smart thing to do and something very very tough to prepare for.

 

Miguel Canto vs Chan-Hee park is full of this.Quite similar to Benitez vs Leonard, with the defensive master trying to figure out a speed advantage against a fighter not really wishing to commit to leads too often.

Pat Cowdell is quite funny against Sanchez.Feinting constantly, but almost always just throws the left jab no matter the amount or kind of feint preceding it.Fairly effective though as Sanchez didn't really solve it, winning more through his flat out superior activity level.

 

I like Watanabe-Roman. I thought that the reason Roman was able to get the decision is because he was comfortable at his opponents range, and clearly the master at his own. For those who aren't familiar with Watanabe, he was a brilliant pure boxer, a southpaw who if left to box on the outside without challenge, would simply tee off and make life difficult, brilliant footwork without excessive moevement, a great jab, and technically sound punches in bunches. One would expect going into the fight that Watanabe would own the fight at long range, due to his skills. But Roman hustled, feinted, and puts on a display which is a prime example of how to negate dimensional advantages (see Duran-Barkley), by using angles and classic countering, walking his man onto shots etc. As the fight goes on it looks as though it will remain a chess match in the vein it's been fought thus far, which is a pretty even boxing match with Roman maybe doing the slightly more scoring. Then due to some kind of exchange which I don't fully remember too clearly, the fight goes to close quarters, Roman rips Watanabe to the body inside, and therein is the revelation. Watanabe does well in one of the rounds in the slugging stakes and shows much heart in doing so but in the grand scheme of things Roman is too an experienced a close range man and he does scoring there which makes the difference.

He is adept and able to contest the bout successfully at Watanabe's own game, boxing and weaving for space and angles to capitalise on. He is clearly the better man at his own game, andf that gives him the advantage.

Also, I think it's either round two or three, I can't remember, but Watanabe displays his full array of fantastic footwork, so the thread starter may want to check that out, walking his man onto shots, straight lefts down the middle, fantastic.