When did in-fighting at HW stop being a thing?

IMO, this is good infighting. Two skilled boxers, short punches, they could have fought this one in a 6x6 ring. Surprisingly, one fighter weighed 230, the other over 250. The pace was fast, both knew how to fight on the inside, good angles, good defense, and short, hard uppercuts and hooks. Excellent fight.

If there is anything in boxing that you don't see anymore, it is because it has been replaced with something that works better. It's like the two handed set shot in basketball, it doesn't work against better athletes and it has been replaced by something better and more effective.

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It stopped with Holy and Bowe i believe

 

No, it's not because of that. You can say all you want about me knowing nothing about boxing, but don't talk about basketball history because you have no clue about that.

 

My conjecture is that it's less due any erosion of skill, but more that clinching tends to break up the "action".

Contrary to some on this forum, it's screamingly obvious to me that many early twentieth century fights are in fact extremely skillful, but honestly I think they're generally much less fun to watch than fights post ~1930. I personally would be a lot more likely (as a contemporaneous fan) to buy a ticket in 1935 than 1905.

Granted, if I'm time traveling, I'm definitely going to 1905 instead, but that's more for historical reasons and to see more stuff I haven't already seen.

 

Why is it, in your judgement? (Honest question, I know next to nothing about basketball.)

 

Back then in the 1940s, basketball players were taught to use different kind of shots in different situation. Long setshot was used to score from outside with open position. When you were guarded, you used either one legged floater or jumpshot to make separation from your defender. When you were close to the paint, they taught to use running hooks.

Around late 1950s coaches and players realized that you can replace all this things by mastering jumpshot. It's simply more effective because you can use it in variety of situation and you don't have to focus on other shots in training.

You still had some exceptions - Richie Guerin played almost until the 1970 and he used oldschool setshot from outside all the time. He had a jumpshot off the dribble too, which is the thing I'm talking about. He played against much more athletic players than in the 1940s or 1950s and he was still very good player, because he used it in proper situations.

Setshots still exist today though. There are many players who shoot setshots from outside because it was easier for them. Remember - setshots were always usef from open position, so the athleticism of defender has nothing to do with it.

If you want to see a player shooting contested setshots, watch Adrian Dantley. He played in the 1980s, so it wasn't that long ago. He mastered using body fakes and footwork to set up his signature slow setshot. He is arguably the greatest isolation scorer ever, so let's not act like it's impossible to use setshots effectively against athletic defenders.

 

That Povetkin match was a disgrace.

 

I just don't get what Povetkin was thinking. Was his whole game plan based on assuming Wlad would suddenly forget how to clinch?

 

After the Bowe-Holyfields.

 

Clinch infighting is becoming a lost art for three reasons. Fighters don't learn it, the trainers don't teach it and there are few role models out there for young kids to look to. Gloves today are stiffer, usually made of foam, and are thumb attached, this makes it difficult to hold on to things and use the hand open, it's also why catching punches is a discarded art form. Lastly, the way the rules are interpreted by referees today does not give much room for infighting, as soon as two boxers come together the ref breaks them, if one continues to punch the ref might see that as holding and hitting and deduct a point. Infighting isn't gone, but it's rare now and there's not much depth to it. You'll notice, the more boxing has become a sport, the more one dimensional it's become, pretty much everyone today fights in the same basic style, or a version thereof. I doubt fight fans, let alone casual viewers, would appreciate clinchwork and infighting if they saw it today.

 

This. Fighters nowdays aren’t willing to go through all of intense drills and constant corrections it would take to become good at infighting. Good footwork is also becoming a thing of the past in the heavyweight division.

I unfortunately seen this first hand when I used to spend a lot of time in boxing gyms with my trainer. Instead of just listening and learning these guys would come up with every excuse in the book about why they didn’t need to learn infighting. The two most well known heavyweights-cruiserweights I seen do this were Wilder and Gassiev.

 

What did you see exactly? You saw Wilder and Gassiev refuse to follow their trainers’ instructions in the gym? The trainers showed them some infighting drills and they declined?

 

My trainer and Sergio Nunez tried correcting Wilder’s footwork, since Wilder tends to waste a lot of energy with the way he moves around the ring and tried to correct the way Wilder rotates his body when he gets crowded, so he doesn’t leave his body as open as he does. Joshua also has this problem as well.

Wilder kept making excuses about how this type of fighting was old fashioned and that with his power he didn’t need good footwork or infighting skills. If my trainer wasn’t such good friends with Mark Breland he would’ve chewed Wilder out, but out of respect for Mark he let it slide. To prove a point Sergio had Wilder spar Medzhid Bektemirov, who put Wilder on his back with a left hook to the body and a right hand to the jaw.

My trainer told Wilder why he got dropped and how to correct it, but Wilder ignored him and got dropped again, which really pissed off Coach Sal, the head trainer of the gym, who talked about Wilder like a dog and told him he could leave if he got dropped again, which for whatever reason seemed to work, since Wilder started listening a little. My trainer said Wilder was more stubborn than Ron Lyle, who he served as a sparring partner for in the early to mid 70’s.

Gassiev has too much raw strength for his own good, since he can smash most guys that aren’t clever enough to neutralize his power, which is why I don’t think he ever seemed to put much effort in many of the drills Abel had him perform. A few years back when me and Kid Flash went to Goossen’s Abel had Gassiev doing drills with Andy Ruiz, who despite his looks is a workhorse in the gym.

Abel had Andy and Gassiev doing an infighting drill similar to the one GGG was trying to show Sullivan Barrera for his fight with Ward, which unfortunately Barrera never quite mastered. But, to be fair GGG just makes it look easy. It takes a lot of practice to execute properly.

Gassiev kept messing up and walked off, which is a huge no no. Abel also had Gassiev do the 2lb dumbbell routine, which involves throwing clean combinations without dropping your hands for 10 minutes. Andy did the routine easily while Gassiev quit. Gassiev like Wilder only wanted to spar, hit the pads, and work the bag.

This is actually why I didn’t think Gassiev would be much of a threat against Usyk and why I thought he would quit, which I think he would’ve done if anybody other than Abel was working his corner that night.

 

That's some really interesting insight.

What would you say some important drills for a young fighter to follow would be?

 

I agree. Wilder would be even more dominant if he tried those things, imo. He already has a near-Foreman level right hand.

In a way I look at Wilder a bit like pre-Steward Lewis. It's mostly about the right hand, to the relative detriment of most other, timelessly effective boxing skills.

Though I persist in believing Wilder won that Tyson fight, I think he would have put him down for good had he worked a much better jab, for one thing.