When did it become a thing that a fighter has to beat another twice?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Saintpat, May 28, 2020.


  1. Saintpat

    Saintpat Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I see this all the time:

    Holmes beat Witherspoon.

    “He didn’t give him a rematch.”

    Lennox Lewis beat Vitali.

    “But he didn’t give him a rematch.”

    It’s like Thor in Infinity War:

    Thor: “He hasn’t fought me.”

    Rabbit: “Yes he has.”

    Thor: “Well he hasn’t fought me twice.”

    I honestly don’t think this was a thing 30 or 50 or 70 years ago. Yeah, guys fought more often and thus more rematches (probably) did take place (including rematches that didn’t need to happen), but plenty of historic matchups only happened once.

    Mostly it’s used to dismiss the win someone has and try to take their legacy down a peg, so I think it’s really an invention of wanting some ammunition — ‘well sure he beat the guy, but he could have fought him again and next time he might have lost!!!’ — and it got repeated enough that somehow people began to think that way, but I’m wondering if someone can put their finger on when this became a prevalent argument.

    And even then it’s often not enough. Andre Ward beat Kovalev twice but people who didn’t want to accept the outcome simply dismissed both wins. Canelo Alvarez is 1-0-1 against GGG, but I honestly think he could beat him 10 times in a row and some wouldn’t accept it because it doesn’t fit their narrative.

    And, philosophically, why does a fighter have to beat another twice to get credit for winning? And why isn’t it universal? Tim Witherspoon didn’t rematch everyone he beat in competitive fights but no one brings that up. If offered a second fight with ‘Spoon for a reasonable purse, I don’t see any reason to think Holmes wouldn’t have fought him again.

    So why, exactly, is this a thing? And does anyone have any idea of when it became one?
     
  2. The Long Count

    The Long Count Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    The economic model of boxing today lends to have more dubious decisions to get a return match. Personally I felt Kovalev clearly beat Ward to the point had he received the verdict I didn’t see the point for a rematch. Triple G was closer imo and a rematch was warranted. Same thing with Fury - I thought he schooled wilder. No point in rematch to his credit he’s the only one that did better the second time around.
    Boxing doesn’t get the exposure it did in the past. So often when there is a big fight many casuals don’t really have an idea of how good a guy is - get a controversial ending - and branding is done everyone talking on social media about it everyone knows their names now and the rematch becomes even bigger. It’s all about the money.
     
  3. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra H2H Burger King

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    Split decisions might have contributed to "outrage" from both the fighters and fans. I agree with Mike Tyson, I don't believe in split decisions. He said something to the effect of "it's a fight. How are you the better fighter because of ONE POINT...?".

    Social media has given fighters a voice they never had before and can run their mouths to self promote and play victim like they got robbed.

    Good point about Canelo and Golovkin. Some people just play favorites and some fighters are media darlings. I remember seeing some scathing comments on YouTube calling Juan Manuel Marquez a "coward" for retiring instead of giving Pacquiao a 5th fight.
     
  4. Saintpat

    Saintpat Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Firpo knocked Dempsey through the ropes ... yet never has been criticized for not giving a rematch (that I’ve ever seen).

    The Sharkey finish was controversial ... no rematch and I don’t see anyone saying it tainted Jack’s legacy.

    What about Greb not fighting Walker again? Damon Runyon reported that Greb’s big 14th round saved his title.

    I could go on and on.

    I think the ‘you have to beat a man twice or it doesn’t count’ thing is a more recent phenomenon.
     
    George Crowcroft likes this.
  5. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    I think there's two very different things being discussed here.

    There's a big difference between demanding a rematch because a fight was close, or had some debate, and a fighter whoo's legitamately earned themselves a title shot not getting it because of an earlier loss.
     
    The Senator likes this.
  6. WAR01

    WAR01 In the 7.2% Full Member

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    Wills lost to Langford twice and made sure to beat him twenty times... been going on for a little while now.
     
  7. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

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    History is filled with rematches, and many great ones.

    Titles don't necessarily need to be on the line either.

    Ali and Frazier were hellbent on proving who the better man was and had some real scraps.

    Ali fought Norton multiple times despite him being awkward every time out.

    Joe Louis rematched guys like Conn and Walcott who had given him loads of trouble.

    Hagler got rematches against all the guys he didn't beat excepting SRL in his last fight.

    Bowe and Holyfield went at it like cats and dogs.

    Rematching might not be mandatory in most cases but fighting someone again that run you really close or may have been unlucky on the cards and settling any doubt is a solid plus in anyone's books. Look at say Ezzard Charles three defeats of Archie Moore. This series is one of the biggest stamps of greatness in history. If Charles beat him the once plenty would wonder what might happen if they fought again, maybe Archie had an off night etc etc etc but to beat him not twice but three times
    thrusts Charles into the stratosphere. This is an extreme example of what can come out of multiple fights. Obviously we are talking about pinnacle level ATG's here.
     
  8. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member

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    It's a very petty criticism.
     
  9. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    It's somewhat related to the other strange thing where winning a rematch 'proves' losing the first fight was a fluke.

    In a case like Holmes-Witherspoon, where the decision was very very close, I see why a lack of a rematch could be brought up though. To be fair.
     
    BitPlayerVesti likes this.
  10. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    This is a tricky question. If the first fight is close, and the loser of the match remains highly ranked, a re-match should happen unless politics prevent it. If there was a bad decision, then a re-match is in order as well.

    One thing I never liked about Lewis is he never gave one rematch to anyone who gave him a tough fight, but was lucky to get a re-match with Rhaman and McCall.

    By contrast Holyfield would re-match anyone.
     
  11. Saintpat

    Saintpat Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Like most, Holyfield would rematch anyone if it made financial sense. But Bert Cooper nearly knocked him out and we didn’t see them in the ring together again.

    I think if you beat someone once you’ve beaten them. I don’t see why someone has to go 2-0 versus someone to have beaten them.

    But hell, Pep won 1 out of 4 against Saddler and some people prefer to only count that result.