When Did John L. Sulivan Actually Become World Heavyweight Boxing Champion?

My opinion on the Mitchell bout in 1883 is

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the letter of the Marquess of Queensberry rules were to be followed exactly, which i do not believe they were in that the rule: "Should the contest be stopped by any unavoidable interference, the referee to name the time and place as soon as possible for finishing the contest;" i would suggest the Police halting the bout (albeit when Mitchell was nigh on unconcious) was a interference and as far as i am aware no time/place was made to finish the contest by the referee.

I realise my opinion is pedantic but hey i'll join your stickler for such matters team.

 

I love the Sullivan Legend as well as his place in history but do not and never have considered him a championship caliber M of Q titleholder, more of the artery Corbett passed through to win the title. To my knowledge Sullivan never defended the title against anyone of any merit under those rules. Sullivan’s greatest M f Q achievement was actually going twenty rounds against Corbett in his depleted condition and establishing the precedent.

 

He arguably defended the title more times under Queensbury rules than Joe Louis.

Yes his fights were billed as exhibitions for legal reasons, but thee is no doubt that the opponent would have become the new champion, if they had beaten him.

 

irrevelant.

 

Well it was probably the only way that it could have been done at the time.

His options were some sort of illegal prize fight, or a fight billed as a legal exhibition.

 

I think the legal context is relevant. We make allowances at various points in the lineage. Depending on era, we pick and choose which belts are legit, and how many a fighter has to collect to be The Man. We allow Jeffries to count as a champion even though he wouldn't let black people fight for his title. Same with Dempsey. Same with lots of others. Johnson doesn't get retroactively DQ'd for his octopus antics in the ring, even though he probably would be today. Holmes makes it into the lineage even though he dropped his belts and went after the IBF. Even the actual heavyweight lineage died off when Tunney retired, and again when Rocky retired, and again when Lewis retired...but we still keep recognizing a lineal champion, because we shift our standards around slightly from era to era to fit the realities of the situation on the ground.

Official title defenses in a modern sense seem less important, IMO, in an era where you could be arrested for making them. If the guy had to label his fights exhibitions, I don't think we should anachronistically read our own interpretation of what that means back into Sullivan's era.

 

Irrelevant again. Too much spin, too little common sense. Just my opinion.

 

Disagree. And to the extent "spin" implies I'm somehow acting as John L. Sullivan's PR guy (he's dead, and doesn't care what I think), not the case.

But as you say, it's all just our opinions.

 

What should Sullivan have done in your opinion then?

I mean within what was possible at the time.

 

First of all I happen to be a huge fan of Sullivan .. big time .. I just see him differently , more of how he saw himself .. the title of his autobiography is prefect where he describes himself as a 19th Century Gladiator .. he could, would and did fight under a myriad of different rules .. while he said he preferred gloves for many reasons his biggest victories , Flood, Mitchel, Ryan, Kilrain, etc were bareknuckle .. I have no doubt he was a physical marvel and gifted fighter with strength, speed, power, a terrific chin and stamina but I do not see him as any sort of highly skilled M of Q fighter mainly because the game was not there in the US at the time .. I feel that Corbett brought it with him as it was evolving and at the time and as a result of their bout , M of Q became the standard followed and accepted .. I understand other arguments can be made but I just see from a pragmatic standpoint that Sullivan never had any M of Q training nor consistent competition to compete with any other heavyweight champions that followed .. he may have beaten a few but it would most be like a MMA match ..

 

To a great extent, what you say is correcy. However, gloved M of Q was more common than you think during his reign, Burke,Mitchell, McCaffrey, Cleary, Cardiff, Kilrain and others were having multiple glove contests as was John L on his tours, his proble early on was that he was miles too good for his opponents(most of who to be fair were novices) and historically when we look back, the few good men he met were very small heavyweights. I think he would be judged better if he had fought Killen, Godfrey, McAuliffe, Kilrain(gloves) and up to 1888 he would almost certainly have crushed them. But he didn't....! He was however considered World champion from 1882 and most didn't differenciate between MofQ or LPR at that time. But as you say, from Corbett on, only gloves mattered.

 

Sort of.

Sullivan's career spanned a decade, and things changed a lot during that decade.

His early fights were largely against bare knuckle specialists, even if they took place under Queensbury rules, and a couple of those fighters seem to have evolved into decent Queensbury fighters.

By the mid 1880s you are starting to see a lot more Queensbury specialists, and some fighters who had never known anything else.

By the late 1880s you are looking at what is predominantly a Queensbury era.

It is only fair to notice, that some of the bare knuckle and hybrid fighters, bested some of the later Queensbury fighters at their own game.

It is plausible that Mitchell and Burke were as skillful under Queensbury rules, as anybody around in Corbett's era.

 

To be fair there is some evidence that he beat Killrain with gloves.

 

How about wrestling, wresting, throwing and spiking ? No three minute rounds ? Come on ..