When did John L Sullivans reign begin?

Buy the book by Pollard

 

There's no single date.

You could count it from as early as his win over Paddy Ryan, or pick some later win like Charlie Mitchell. Dominick McCaffrey is picked by some people, but I don't see much reason to start with that one.

It'll certainly be somewhere between the 1882 win over Ryan to the 1885 win over McCaffrey.

 

I'd go with 1882 with the win over Ryan

 

The lineal world title, was created by unifying the British and American titles.

Jem Mace became the first lineal heavyweight champion, when he defeated Tom Allen, to unify the British and American heavyweight titles.

Jem Mace retired without losing his title in the ring.

A new lineage was created by matching Joe Goss against Tom Allen, to again unify the British and American titles.

Joe Goss won to become the new lineal world champion.

Joe Goss lost the lineal title to Paddy Ryan.

Most people accepted that John L Sullivan became the new lineal champion, when he beat Paddy Ryan in their first fight.

The gloved title was a different entity, and considered inferior to the bare knuckle title by most.

Many considered Sullivan to be the gloved champion, after he defeated Joe Goss in a gloved bout, before he beat Paddy Ryan.

Others argued that he became gloved champion after he defeated charlie Mitchell, to unify the American and British gloved titles.

Some argued that he never truly became the world champion, until he defeated Jake Killrain in their bare knuckle match!

 

I think there's a big problem in that Goss seems to have vacated his titles looking at the reports of the time before fighting Ryan or Sullivan. He was quite happy for Dwyer and Ryan to fight for the title, that fight never happened, but Dwyer beat Elliot for the championship of America, and then was to defend against Ryan, and around that time Goss made an offer Ryan. Dwyer was forced to retire from boxing before defending against Ryan, so Ryan Goss fought for the title he vacated.

Ryan Vs Goss was for the vacant American or maybe world title, but Goss was just an ex-champion fighting for a vacant title, not a current champion defending one.

I think the whitewasing of Dwyer out of the American lineage gives an inaccurate impression.

 

Imagine living at a time when guys like Joe Goss and Tom Allen are regarded as possibly being the top two “heavyweights“ in the world.

I’d bet there was an extraordinary number of big 200lb+ untrained laborers and criminals living who would have dusted Goss after a few months of training.

 

Yes, undoubtedly.

 

I guess that Dwyer falls into the same category as the Maher/Fitzsimmons/Sharkey lineage, but it is another tier of complication!

 

If you have the full boxed set for Goss or Allen, then I would be interested in seeing it!

No there weren't.

If they could have done it, they would have made many times more money, than they could ever have made, as a laborer or criminal!

If they could have done it, then they would have tried!

 

Professor William Miller was around at that time and mixing well with Goss, Dwyer, Taylor, Elliott, Ryan etc before going to Australia and besting Foley. Sullivan was the champion of the world at both codes simply by the fact that the only criteria that mattered, the peoples opinion, declared him as such. As a LPF that was when he beat Ryan, as a MQR fighter, more gradual but generally accepted after 1883.

 

That’s a bit naive. There were tons of barriers that would have prevented many physically talented big men from pursuing careers in boxing in the 1870s. Especially if he was a black man living in the south, or a working man with family obligations, or living in part of the country with no active boxing scene. And of course, they would have had to find and win over the few people who could make a fight like that happen. So there are many, many reasons why people who possibly could have beaten that little 150-lb man with a little bit of the right training would not actually have tried to do so.

 

Bull****!

Every fighter of that era, worked under the same conditions.

A navy died in his 40s back then, while a boxer could buy a pub, which would act like a pension today.

Some heavyweight title fights, generated more media coverage, than the Battle of Trafalgar.

Fighters operating in depression era America, had exactly the same problems.

If anybody had fancied their chances against these guys, they would have had nothing to lose!

I repeat nothing!

Worst case scenario, they get knocked out!

 

You really think it would have been that easy for some physically talented laborer or thug in some remote part of the country to leave his home (and family), find a good boxing trainer, and land a fight with Joe Goss?

And I assume that even you would acknowledge that this wouldn’t hold true for all the oppressed former slaves living under the apartheid of Jim Crow white supremacy?