When did Larry Holmes stop being the world's number 1 heavyweight ?

I'm going to give two scenario's.

The first - did Holmes cease being the number 1 heavyweight when he refused to fight Greg Page and thereafter steered clear of Thomas, Witherspoon and basically anyone with a pulse while telling us he was going to take the easy road home as he deserved and earnt it?

The second - if we discard this train of thought and go simply by talent, well yes i agree Thomas might likely have beat him around the time stated. I however give Holmes the benefit of the doubt due to the issue being anything but cut and dried. Thomas wasn't exactly unbeatable and Holmes still had the fading greatness, experience, sheer will and incredible resilience and lust for battle to at least fight on even terms with Thomas.

Remember, BIG underdog Spinks caught Holmes very much offguard in the first bout and Holmes should have been ashamed of his condition and woeful effort. He did however come back to beat Spinks handily in the rematch. It's entirely possible at this point he was still numero uno, strange as it might seem. Others weren't exactly knocking down the door to greatness.

 

You made some good points,but what about the controversial fight with Williams? The scorecards were way off and I thought the fight could have gone either way,Williams only had 16fights at the time. Although Holmes deserved the 2nd fight I dont think he beat him handily and I think the controversy on that fight is overblown.

 

Yey but id go with Thomas since he decisioned Witherspoon around that time.

 

Holmes started to slip after 1982. I still viewed him as the numero uno until the first Spinks fight,though. Reason being that nobody was coming along as the obvious successor. Everybody was beating everybody else. I did think,at the time,that Pinklon Thomas was capable of beating a declining Holmes,but then he lost convincingly to Trevor Berbick. Five years previously a better version of Berbick lost even more convincingly to a prime Holmes.

 

Thomas was already faded when he lost to Berbick he had been inactive almost a year and was back to his old drug habit. TheWeaver fight was the last prime version we ever saw of Thomas. His prime was very short maybe 2 to 3 years.

 

I thought Holmes edged the Williams fight. Stylistically Williams and Thomas were miles apart and having a close one with Carl doesn't mean he'd lose to Thomas. When talking of out and out number 1 Thomas lost just when it seemed he was ready to lay claim.

Witherspoon, well he was hot and cold and was never number 1.

Holmes definitely deserved the second, no if's or but's just as Spinks undoubtably won the first. So we have Holmes in the rematch in as good a shape as he could then get into and beating Spinks.

With Thomas beating Witherspoon and then Weaver in June 85 and Holmes losing 3 months later, well one could make a good case Thomas was king right after the Spinks loss. Thomas then lost March 86 and Holmes realistically beat Spinks the very next month, so he's prolly back to the top funnily enough.

The thing is no-one really put their hand up apart from Thomas for a short time. Thomas was considered by some to be the "people's champion" when Holmes started picking easy meat.

 

I used to think Thomas would very likely take Holmes in '84-'85, but having reviewed some of his fights, i may have overrated him somewhat. Too often did he get lazy or did his lack of good defensive capabilities get him to lose rounds. Plus, Larry, even in 84, was still pretty good and would be damned if he lost. Williams basically matched up perfect with Holmes, and still didn't get the win - even if he deserved it.

The thing is, when Holmes lost his most valuable attribute that set him apart from many of the 80's "could've been's", i.e. his conditioning, focus and determination, he quickly lost (see Spinks I), but got back on top when he regained his focus (see the rematch).

 

thumbsup Good post. I think I can agree with all that you said.

 

:thumbsup Another good post. I do remember a slightly faded Weaver giving Thomas all he could handle before that big shot he landed on him. He did tend to get lazy at times. Even the Draw with Coetzee he could have won but he got lazy,although he probably wasnt at his best yet.

 

Dont know why people say Holmes won fight 1 vs Spinks, I thought it was close BUT CLEAR win for Spinks. Holmes was hardly moving in that fight and he had no ideal how to counter Spinks.

The rematch yeah Holmes won, I can understand that, but that first fight belong to Spinks.

 

:good:good Spinks went out and took the fight. He flurried and threw many more punches than Holmes did, consequently landing more too. It was a Spinks win.

 

Who would say Holmes won the first fight tho? I remember Mendoza pushing it (denied years later) and one other (might have been Bill) but apart from that i've not seen much action.

 

Around the end of 84, maybe earlier, when he refused to meet certain heavyweights.

 

I had the 1st fight a draw and Holmes by a pt in the 2nd! By facts are facts and I would say he lost the top spot when Spinks beat him once and Spinks solidified his claim with the 2nd win controversy or not