When exactly was Tyson's prime?

If prime refers to when a fighter was at his "best", and not just taking into account youthfulness or physical peak, then his best years were from about the Berbick of '86 to the spinks match of '88. After Bill Cayton and Kevin Rooney were canned, along with the whole Robyn Givens debacle, and everything else, Tyson's life and career basically went to crap. There was no discipline. Training basically went out the window. There was more emphasis placed on partying with the homies and hanging out with women there was preparing for fights. In earlier clips of Tyson's training camp, we saw Tyson, Rooney, his cornermen, and a few sparring partners. After King took over, we all of a sudden saw these thugs with top hats and shades hanging out in the background....

 

Depends how one wants to define prime. To me to define Tyson at his best would be when he was physically and mentally at his best. Focused, determined, and doing all the things a fighter has displayed at his respective best, and consistently.
Tyson was no longer his best after the Spinks fight. Physically he was still capable of performing on the top level, but he had gotten away from specific things that made him what he was, trainer, training etc. The proof came out in the next few fights, getting hurt badly in the Bruno fight and eventually knocked out a couple fights later. The Ruddock fights to me looked like the Bruno fights. Tyson winging away and taking a lot of punishment he hadnt taken during his first championship run. Not sure if Tyson was ever capable of returning to what he was after prison (he admitted he didnt have the gut for it), but certainly he was up until his incarceration.

 

And a comment on Tyson being "carefully matched".

Yes, he was. But so are all fighters who show great potential to be champions at the beginning of their careers. They are matched so they can learn and grow, and so their records are intact for that big championship fight. This seems to come out against Tyson because he is under such a microscope, but it's no different from anyone else. It's who they fight once they become champion that you can start to judge. Tyson took on everyone once he became champ.

 

I really don't know how we can claim that he was carefully matched. He turned pro when he was 18 years of age, and within less than two years, was champion. Some of the better fighters that he was matched with prior to facing Berbick were Frazier, Ribalta, Tillis, Green, Ferguson and Radcliff. Who else was he supposed to be fighting at 19 years of age?

 

Hey man, you are preaching to the choir. I'm just calling out people that try to discredit Tyson's earlier career because he fought "nobodies" and that he was "protected". All I'm saying is that all fighters start out that, and work their way up, but for some reason Tyson gets ragged on for it.

 

He was definitely carefully matched in his first 27 fights.
But he was also matched often, fighting like twice a month, so that's a credit to his management.

Jacobs and Cayton were very astute and aware that the "KO highlight reel montage"-style publicity on Tyson was working. After Tyson was forced to go the distance two fights in a row against Tillis and Green, they made sure he got three lower grade opponents in a month to build him up for Marvis Frazier, (who was also picked as somewhat "easy" since he'd been KO'd in 1 by Larry Holmes). I'm not saying they matched him with complete tomato cans, but they didn't want too many competent spoilers or real danger men.
And Cayton and Jacobs and the original Tyson team were notoriously controlling and manipulative towards the media and basically refused access to certain reporters who weren't helping build up the invincible Tyson image. And spoiled the guys who were. But that's the business side of boxing. Kickbacks and bull**** rules the day.

 

Firstly, it's not all fighters. Although it seems to be most fighters in recent eras.
And secondly, I'm ready to rag on anyone who got built up on too many easy opponents.

 

I had previously said fighters who show great potential and as such are recognized by proper management.

And that's fine--except Tyson wasn't built up "on too many easy opponents." I think his career took a pretty normal course---as Mr. Magoo stated, he was fighting for the championship within two years of turning pro.

Yes, he was very well promoted compared to most boxers, but that's different from being coddled and having a padded resume.

 

Agreed,

Champions are rated by their ability to beat whatever availabe challengers that were around at the time. Tyson did this and then some...

 

I believe Nov 1987 - June 1988

 

Only fighters with poor management, arent fed a steady diet of lower grade opponents for experience in the beginning stages of their career. There's really nothing wrong with it if the opponent provides a different look for the fighter to grow from. The amatuers dont provide that, just as they dont provide 6,8,10, and 12 round fights, so its crucial that a fighter is prepared for each tier or step up the ladder against each specific style.
Kind of hard to criticise Tyson, because he never lost even when presented with a style that gave him a little difficulty. He also fought just about every available contender of the 80's either before or after his title campaign. There's really no question mark on his early career as far as styles go, he faced and defeated just about every style thats in boxing, accept one that was attached to another all time great in their prime.

 

February 17th 1988 to February 18th 1988. I know, I know, but you should've seen him in training that day. Un-freaking-believable. A flash of an inhuman phenomena that day. Everything was just perfect.

 

It was a sunny day too. Clearly it was a Tyson day also. He was a phenom. Phenom! It should be declared Tyson day as far as I'm concerned.

 

You still feel that people are describing Tyson as growing old overnight after the Douglas fight dont you?

 

Well, his management was good, and the best thing I can say about his pre-title run is that he was being kept busy. Yes, they included some decent learning fights (Ferguson, Tillis, Green, .... and Ribalta turned out to be a good pick)

Evander Holyfield, Joe Frazier, Joe Louis fought far far tougher fighters in there first 15 - 20 fights than did Tyson, IMO.
But I wouldn't call that "poor management".
Lennox Lewis fought Gary Mason in his 15th pro fight, which isn't shabby at all.
Tyson fought Mark Young in his 15th fight, and possibly the fighter with the "best" credentials he fought in his first 15 was Donnie Long in his 9th fight ! (Incidentally, Long was KO'd in 1 the following year by a 13-0 Mason, without any fanfare. Mason also fought Mark Young - in his 12th fight- and saying Mason was brought along carefully wouldn't be too controversial).

Tyson racked up lots of these wins very quickly, which is the saving factor in his management's match-making record, but there are several champions who weren't matched so carefully.
Floyd Patterson, managed by Cus D'amato was actually fighting some tough experienced fighters early on, at a similar age to Tyson. He fought Joey Maxim in his 14th fight.
George Chuvalo was matched ridiculously hard early on, aged 19 and 20 - perhaps too hard, but he won most of them and learned a lot and I dont think he had quite the same talent as Tyson.
Ray Mercer fought a tougher first 20 than Tyson, and sure he was a lot older, but again he didn't have the same talent for disposing of easy pickings as Tyson did.

As I said before, a lot of it was purposely designed to make the KO montage highlight reels. Cayton and Jacobs video taped his early fights, and edited the footage along with his early TV fights, mostly 1st round KOs, and bombarded the sports media with the tape. The big TV companies and HBO picked up on the method and by the time of the Berbick fight, spectacular Tyson KOs (over mostly tomato cans) were being viewed all over the world as part of the advertising for the Berbick fight and the heavyweight unification tournament.
But you guys know all this. I'm just pointing out that there was a reason for careful matchmaking, and the careful matchmaking was a reality.