When Floyd retires...

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by VG_Addict, Apr 12, 2014.

  1. Hatesrats

    Hatesrats "I'm NOT Suprised..." Full Member

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  2. I Know Everythi

    I Know Everythi Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Him and manny will never be in the top 45 p4p

    Let's look at Floyd's "noteworthy" wins.

    1) Genaro Hernandez - never beat en elite fighter in their prime EVER. When he beat Azumah, Azumah was a shell of his former self.

    2) Diego "padded record" corrales - a bum who never beat a notable fighter and got showed up by Castillo clottey and casamayor. Paper champion. Did not beat an elite fighter EVER. The fact that he was rated above Floyd, Hopkins, Lennox, Roy Jones in 2001 proves that he is extremely overrated and for this reason people perceive Floyd's victory as noteworthy when it is not. And I don't care if Lennox lost in 2001 he was still better than Corrales could hope to be.

    3) Arturo "punching bag" gatti - before rios was the punching bag u had gatti who was an exciting boxer but nothing more than a walking punching bag and never beat anyone. Micky Ward was never an elite fighter, just an exciting punching bag. Ward does not count as a notable win aside from the excitement value of the fight.

    4) Jose L Castillo - a guy who was never an elite fighter and still managed to beat floyd bumweather in the first fight but got robbed by the judges. Showed up Floyd and exposed him as a fighter who is only good at fighting his own fight and why he'd get crushed by Guys like Duran Armstrong Leonard hearns Langford Walker Smith Pernell and more. No excuses about Floyd's shoulder can be used. Holyfield fought a good fight vs Moorer with a hurt shoulder and roy jones beat bernard hopkins EASY with a broken right hand. If Floyd wants to hold a candle to those guys the my shoulder hurts excuse can't be used. Yes floyd did win the second fight, but the fact remains he got showed up by a good but not great fighter in Castillo. Castillo is certainly not an all time great and beating him does not propel you into the all time great ranks. Losing to this guy definitely hurts your stock.

    5) Zab undisputed paper champion Judah - not a true undisputed champion. Got crushed by guys like Cory spinks and kosta tzyu. Even lost to Baldomir. Avenging a loss against Spinks is not notable because there should not have been a need to avenge it in the first place. Funny thing is even a joke like Judah was dominatin the first 4 rounds (knocking down Floyd) before he ran out of gas. Judah NEVER beat a great boxer EVER in his entire career.

    6) Carlos "Basura" Maldomir - no notable wins or skill. Zab Judah is not a notable win. Gatti is a punching bag and nothing more. Baldomir had his 15 minutes of fame from beating Judah/Gatti and that was it. Paper champion like the vast majority of Floyd's title fight opponents.

    7) Ricky fatten hatton - like his overrated countryman calzaghe (who was gifted a W vs hopkins) he fought against no names his whole career and had a padded record. Malignaggi does not count as a good win - and that's the best guy Hatton beat. No technique no chin for hatton and a meaningless W like almost all of Floyd's wins. The fact that he was rated high on the p4p list only shows how sheep are quick to follow the herd when they have no knowledge of boxing. Most pound for pound rankings are a popularity/marketability contest these days and do not accurately reflect true skill.

    8. Oscar de la fishnet - another overrated fighter who was gifted wins over sturm and Whitaker, and almost every time he fought an elite fighter got crushed - look at what happens EVERY TIME he fights top level guys. Mosley (lost twice, tough decision in fight 2) Hopkins (KO) pacquiao (TKO) Whitaker (robbery) Trinidad (3 rounds of running - not something a true champion would do) Sturm (robbery). Oscar must have had Sven Ottke as his mentor with the number of gifted decisions he got. Padded record like Floyd making a career of beating bums like Vargas Chavez Camacho and Ricardo "one hit wonder" Mayorga. Yes Chavez is a bum he made a career of fighting cab drivers (as did Camacho) and was lucky to survive Meldrick Taylor. And Oscar actually gave the "great" Floyd may weather problems and a competitive first 8 rounds before gassing like Zab SuperWack Judah. Pathetic. Oscar has the fake clean cut image and the money but thats about it since his boxing alone could not make him a star. Extremely overrated and not a notable win for a supposedly all time great.

    9) Marquez - this everyone has to admit was a masterful performance by mayweather. Amazing defense reflexes and accurate counterpunching. Marquez never did anything the whole fight and couldnt get on the inside. Amazing technical brilliance by mayweather. But Marquez is the only legit prime fighter on Floyd's resume. Plus - outside of Marco Antonio Basura and Manny Wackquiao - who has marquez beaten? Undersized and tailor made for Floyd like rios for pacquiao. Marquez is a great win and a good fighter but lets not blow this win out of proportion. Beating Marquez alone does not put you in the all time ranks. Even Tim Bradley Freddie Norwood and Chris John beat Marquez. Marquez nunca seria con los mejores en boxeo y nunca podria ser. I advise every non-Spanish speaking person reading this flawless masterpiece to learn Spanish since they will be missing out on wisdom of the highest degree.

    10) Shane Mosley - Floyd likes to criticize other fighters for fighting leftovers when 90% of his fights are leftovers. Mosley was Vernon Forrest and winky wright leftovers by the time he got to floyd. Old gassed and not as explosive or fast as in his prime. Despite that he nearly knocked out Floyd and crushed his supposedly Whitaker-like defense in the first 2 rounds before - again - gassing like all of floyds past prime opponents. Mosley did beat Margacheato and Mayorga prior to smashing Floyd's face in during the second round, but it is evident from Mosley's lack of activity in the next 10 rounds that he wasn't the same Shane that whipped Overrated De la Fishnet.

    11) Miguel cotto - great fighter. Unfortunately he was margacheato and pacquaios punching bag before he got to Floyd. Despite being past his prime he showed up Floyd for 4 rounds and who knows how a prime cotto would have done. The "impregnable" defense of mayweather didn't seem so unstoppable when Floyd's face was cut up like the deer I killed a few weeks ago. Again, Floyd's hypocrisy is exposed as he criticizes other fighters for fighting leftovers.

    12) Victoria Ortiz - never should have been in the ring to begin with. got crushed by maidana and beat another overrated guy in berto. After he headbutts Floyd and gets what he deserves with a knockout - yes what Floyd did is justifiable 100% since it was legal and Ortiz fought dirty in the first place - we again saw the fake paper champion and how weak he is when he quit against Lopez. Ortiz was basically a tune up fight like Bowe vs Ferguson it means literally nothing.

    13) Robert Guerrero - like Ortiz. Beat a bum in berto and lost to guys like salido while also lying to a ringside doctor in his fight vs Yordan about the seriousness of his cut so he could get away with a no contest. The nickname of Ghost suits him since he disappears against guys he can't fight (Salido, Yordan) No notable wins. Padded record just like floyd and his competition. Like Ortiz, this win is worthless. Apparently, beating Berto is enough to get you a fight against a supposedly "all time great" fighter.

    14) Canelo "basura" Alvarez - Canelo no sabe cómo pelear el solamente ganó contra bums como trout Maldomir y un Mosley viejo. No se porque los Mexicanos estaban pensando que canelo tenia una opportunidad ser "el one". Canelo no sabia que estaba haciendo en el ring y nunca vencio a un gran campeon (Mosley era viejo al tiempo que el perdio). In summary Canelo is a bum and another meaningless W. Barely beating Austin Trout who got exposed in the fight after does not make you a notable opponent. Again, if you dont know how to speak Spanish then learn it because you are missing out on some flawless wisdom of the highest degree.

    15) Maidana - good fighter. Not at an elite level though and a win over him will not put Floyd among the greats. Has been easily outboxed by technical guys before. Venciendo a Maidana no será mucho.

    Remember - saying those past and future opponents have belts doesn't mean anything. John Ruiz was a champion but not exactly an elite fighter. Also saying stuff like oh Ricky Hatton/Corrales etc was rated such and such on the p4p list at the time doesn't prove anything. At one point overrated Oscar was the number 1 p4p ahead of guys like Roy Jones and Holyfield while other fighters like Corrales Hamed + Tapia were ahead of Lennox Lewis. Now that Golden Boy is in charge of Ring Magazine the p4p rankings show extreme bias towards certain fighters. (putting Canelo in the top 10 p4p and listing him as the lineal 154 champ before Floyd beat him). Most pound for pound rankings are a popularity/marketability contest these days and do not accurately reflect true skill. Copy pasting rankings/records/statistics proves nothing if you don't put them in context. Doing so will not make paper champions (Hatton/Corrales/Ortiz/Judah) appear more legitimate.

    Also remember - records don't mean everything - Brian Nielsen 64-3, rocky Marciano 49-0 joe calzaghe 45-1 (the Hopkins win was a robbery), Ricky hatton 45-3 better records statistically compared to guys like evander 44-10-2, Ali 56-5, roy jones 57-8, b hopkins 54-6-2 even though they couldn't hold a candle to these fighters. Floyds 45-0 (actual 44-1 because of Castillo) is a padded record and does not legitimize him as an all time great
     
  3. RafaelGonzal

    RafaelGonzal Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    a top 100 where is debatable
     
  4. MVC!

    MVC! The Best Ever Full Member

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    You're an idiot. :patsch

    If Floyd's place in the top 100 is debatable, Manny's place in the top 200 should be as well.

    There is absolutely no doubt Floyd is in the top 25-30 atm.

    We'll see what he does
     
  5. PernellSweetPea

    PernellSweetPea Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    by opponents maybe until we see he beat Delahoya and Mosley when they were older and beatable by other guys, who did beat Delahoya. Mayweather is top 50 for sure, but top 25-30? Sometimes we forget the guys who are in the top 25-30. That is a quite a list.
     
  6. eltirado

    eltirado Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    If he beats an undefeated Bradley, it makes a big difference... If Bradley loses tonight...it drops his atg ranking hard...lowering his value on Mayweather record
     
  7. MVC!

    MVC! The Best Ever Full Member

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    You can't even list of 49 people who deserve to be ahead of him.

    Fact: Modern day fighters won't get the respect they deserve until they retire. That's how it always is..

    He's a firm 25-30.

    And he has 4 more fights. Let's see what he does.
     
  8. I Know Everythi

    I Know Everythi Well-Known Member Full Member

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    All of these boxers
    This content is protected
    , keep that in mind NO PARTICULAR ORDER, are pound for pound better than Floyd and Manny. A higher pound for pound ranking means that fighter X's career is more impressive/notable/accomplished. All boxers (including the ones higher than Floyd and Manny) of every era have fought tomato cans and bums like Manny and Floyd have, but these men's wins against notable opponents far outweigh anything that a present day fighter has done or will do, at least for the foreseeable future.

    1. Joe Louis - beat Schmeling, Baer, Braddock, Conn, Walcott. 25 HW title defenses in 11 years when Floyd's whole career consists of 45 fights in 18 years

    2. Sam langford - a lightweight beating up heavyweights, was 30 pounds lighter than heavyweight Jack Johnson when he fought him, also beat Harry Wills, Gans, and Ketchel. A lightweight fighting an all time great heavyweight and giving him a competitive fight (even if he lost) is much more impressive than Floyd beating oversized bums like Canelo and a washed up Oscar, or Manny beating broken down Cotto.

    3. Henry Armstrong - number 2 p4p all time. Held 3 titles simultaneously in an era with only 8 weight classes and one title per class. No Junior/Super weight classes and no 4 belts per weight class. Beat Barney Ross, Fritzie Zivic and more

    4. Walker Smith (Sugar Ray Rob) - the greatest. No need to explain but I will anyway because these kids these days don't know nothing bout boxing. 128-1-2 in his prime, and he fought and beat the best of his era even after his prime - Olson, Lamotta, Basora, Turpin, Fullmer, Costner, Gavilan you could go on and on

    5. Ray Leonard - finished Benitez, made Duran quit, came from behind to beat Tommy Hearns. After a 3 year layoff moved up in weight to fight Hagler and in my opinion lost but you could make a case for either guy winning - I doubt if Floyd fought Golovkin after a 3 year layoff that the fight would be anything close to competitive. Same for Manny.

    6. Marvin Hagler - finished Hearns in 3 rds. again, you could score Leonard Hagler either way. beat Duran. KOd Mugabi and beat Hamsho twice

    7. Tommy Hearns - got robbed in a rematch with Ray Leonard, KOd Duran in 2 ROUNDS!!!! beat Benitez. Even when he was past his prime he beat Virgil Hill. He did lose to Barkley but Barkley was much bigger than him and styles make fights. Conversely Floyd has never fought someone like Vernon Forrest or Winky Wright who have the perfect style to beat him like Barkley did vs Hearns. Manny has fought a bad style matchup and got crushed by Marquez.

    8. Roberto Duran - first man to beat Ray Leonard. also beat Iran Barkley (and Duran is a natural LIGHTWEIGHT). Conversely, Floyd's only win over a prime and legitimate opponent, and his best win comes against an undersized guy (Marquez). Duran is the greatest 135er of all time. Had one slip up vs Esteban Jesus (and relatively early in his career) which he avenged easily twice.

    9. Roy jones - had a lot of not so great opposition but - he beat Hopkins with a broken right hand EASILY, destroyed an undefeated James Toney, beat Cesar Gonzalez, KOd Virgil Hill, was a middleweight and moved up to heavyweight to win a belt. - Of course, Ruiz is not a great heavyweight but regardless it is mind blowing that a middleweight had the skill to even step in to a ring versus a heavyweight let alone dominate. Thats not as crazy as Langford fighting Jack Johnson but its still insane.

    10. Bhopkins - I would say his robbery vs Calzaghe was a notable win especially at over 40 but Calzaghe fought bums his whole career - a washed up RJJ doesnt count. Regardless - BHop dominated an undefeated Trinidad, KOd Oscar (who is overrated but the same competition that Floyd and Manny fought - only he wasn't as washed up when he fought Bernard), beat Winky Wright who was on a 12-0-1 streak, the only man to finish Glen Johnson, moved up 2 classes to beat Tarver, destroyed an undefeated Pavlik at over 40 years old. and beat Pascal twice even though he got robbed with a draw. - still fighting at the highest level at the age of 49.

    11. Ezzard Charles - beat the great Joe Louis. as a blown up 175er he was making overrated Marciano have problems. Beat guys like Maxim, Bivins, Archie Moore, and Reynolds. You young kids these days don't know nothing about the real boxers so you probably won't recognize those names. However, they were more substance than name value - which you can't say about today's era. Beat and lost to Jersey Joe Walcott also

    12. Archie Moore - Also like Ezzard, a blown up 175er who gave Marciano a lot of problems. Beat, Maxim, Olson, Valdes,

    13. Jersey Joe Walcott - beat Charles, Bivins, Maxim, etc. Crushed overrated Rocky as a blown up 175er before getting KOd. (Remember, you have to factor in that this is a old fighter at a much lower natural weight class whipping a top level HW - he did lose, but the fact that he and guys like Moore and Charles were causing problems despite those disadvantages is notable - just like Langford making Johnson have a tough fight)

    14. Evander Holyfield - Undisputed Cruiser and Heavyweight champ. Beat Qawi at cruiser. Easily beat Riddick Bowe in fight 2, avenged his loss to Moorer, beat Tyson, beat an old Foreman and Holmes - who were still notable wins despite being old (unlike Oscar or some other guys), beat Ray Mercer too. For a natural cruiser to dominate the HW division is mind-blowing (even if he was roided out of his mind - skills pay the bills)

    15. Lennox Lewis - beat every man he ever faced. Beat Holyfield twice. Finished Tommy Morrison. KOd Golota in one round (who should've beaten Bowe if he wasn't an idiot). Smashed in the overrated Vitali's face despite being 38, fat, and in the worst shape of his career while Vitali was in his prime.

    16. Larry Holmes - beat Cooney, Shavers twice, Norton, and robbed vs Spinks. Even though Larry was old he still beat Ray Mercer.

    17. Muhammad Ali - Patterson, Liston, Foreman, Frazier, Norton (he did get a few gifts though - also a gift vs Jimmy Young), Quarry, Bonavena, Ellis. Not much explanation needed

    18. Joe Frazier - the only people to beat him are Foreman and Ali. Still beat Ali, Quarry, Bob Foster, Bonavena, Jimmy Ellis.

    19. George Foreman - absolutely crushed Frazier and Norton. beat Ronny Lyle. In his old age he gave Holyfield a tough fight when he shouldn't have even been in the ring at 40+. Won the title again in his old age KOing Moorer. His old version still beat Gerry Cooney.

    20. Willie Pep - greatest defensive fighter of all time. beat Saddler, Blair, and multiple other top level boxers.

    21. Jack Johnson - he did duck Langford after beating him, but he still whipped top guys like Jeffries, Fitzsimmons (the only other man to do what RJJ did going from MW to HW), Burns, Ketchel. And he fought in a bare knuckle era so he had to deal with taking more punishment. Despite his ducking, the fights that he didn't duck make his career better than Manny and Floyd's by a long shot.

    22. Harry Greb - only man to beat Tunney. Ducked by Dempsey. beat Micky Walker and Wille Meehan. Floyd is 45-0 in his whole career. Harry Greb was 45-0 in one year alone. And he didn't fight all bums in that year like Floyd has.

    23. Pernell Whitaker - he did have a lot of weak opposition but theres a few things he has that put him above. He had much better defense than Floyd - and thats not a knock on Floyd. Pernell was just that good. He crushed Oscar when Oscar was in his prime and Pernell was near the end. Old Pernell did much better against prime Oscar than a prime Floyd did against an old Oscar. He also beat Vasquez and Azumah Nelson (2 guys that don't get respect because they were more substance than name value), and beat Chavez easy. Chavez was overrated, but the manner in which Pernell crushed him is unbelievable and the manner in which he beat Chavez is enough to put him high. Pernell beating Chavez is more impressive than Oscar beating Chavez, because Chavez was still undefeated when Pernell whipped him.

    24. Tiger Flowers - wins over Micky Walker, and multiple wins over Greb. More notable than any of Floyd's wins

    25. Barney Ross - wins over Canzoneri, Ceferino, and McLarnin. Far more notable than Floyd and Manny's best wins over Marquez, washed up Oscar, Cotto, etc
     
  9. I Know Everythi

    I Know Everythi Well-Known Member Full Member

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    26. Mickey Walker - wins over Britton and Flowers far more notable than any of Floyd's wins.

    27. Gene Tunney - Tunney is overrated because the majority of his career he fought a lot of bums. But so did Floyd - if they weren't bums, they were padded records,also overrated, or washed up fighters. Because Tunney and Floyd are both overrated, Tunney's wins over Greb, Jeff Smith, Gibbons, and Dempsey are more notable than Floyd's career of even weaker opposition.

    28. Joe Gans - Did fight a lot of bums but his notable wins are greater than Manny and Floyd's - Dobbs, Elbows Mcfadden, Steve Crosby, etc.

    29. Benny Leonard - Same thing as Gans - beat Britt, Welsh, Kilbane, Britton

    30. Bob Fitzsimmons - looks are deceiving. Other than RJJ he is the only guy to go from middleweight to the heavyweight title. Big wins over Peter Maher and Philly Jack O Brien. People make a big deal of Manny's weight climbing against paper champions and this guy went from middle to heavyweight.

    31. Jimmy McLarnin - beat Canzoneri, Glick, Benny Leonard and Barney Ross. notable wins are greater than Manny and Floyd's

    32. Tony Canzoneri - beat Bill Petrolle, Kid Chocolate, Klick, Dublinsky - all bigger wins than Manny and Floyd's wins.

    33. Jake Lamotta - Raging Bull is one of the most overrated films ever made. But Lamotta beat the GOAT once, Cerdan, Zivic multiple times, and Basora. If you think any of Manny and Floyd's wins are even close to on par with an Marcel Cerdan or undefeated Sugar Ray Rob you are delusional.

    34. James Toney - finished the underrated and undefeated prime Michael Nun, beat Mike McCallum, went from middleweight and should have won the HW title if it wasn't for a failed drug test. Regardless - skills pay the bills, not drugs, so that doesnt diminish his HW accomplishments. Even though Evander was old when James TKOd him, it is still impressive coming from a middleweight. Meanwhile Floyd is unwilling to fight Sergio at 154 (Canelo doesnt count - Canelo was there just to sell ppv and be the face of Golden Boy, not to be a good fighter, which he isn't).

    35. Carlos Monzon - another extremely overrated fighter with 90% of his career full of no names. But Floyd and Manny are also overrated with around the same level of weak competition, so when looking at them from an equally overrated point of view, Monzon's wins over Griffith, Benvenuti, Mundine, Moyer are better than Manny Floyd's best wins.

    36. Emile Griffith - also overrated, but his wins over Rodriguez, Benvenuti, Tiger, and Archer outclass Manny and Floyd's weak wins.

    37. Jack Dempsey - undersized HW who beat guys like Meehan, Willard, Gunboat, Morris, Brennan, Miske, Carpentier, Firpo, Sharkey - all better than Floyd and Manny weak wins

    38. Gene Fullmer - Mueller, past prime Sugar Ray Rob, Turner, Flanagan, Castellani, Humez all better wins than Manny and Floyds

    39. Kid Gavilan - Beau Jack, Castellani, Ike Williams enough good wins to rank over Floyd

    40. Jose Napoles - wins over Garcia, Gutierrez, Vasquez, Urbina, Hernandez, Cokes, Menetrey are better


    41. Marcel Cerdan - Copy pasting a guys record is not a good way to tell their skill (especially with Manny and Floyd) - but this guy had only 4 losses (2 DQ) in 15 yrs and 115 fights. 100% guaranteed if Floyd or Manny had to fight that often against Cerdan's level of competition they would have more than 4 - especially since they lost to guys like Morales Marquez and Castillo who is not as good a fighter as these guys that Cerdan beat - Delannoit, Dick Turpin, Zale, Holman Williams

    42. Eder Jofre - Gomez, Lopez, Jimenez, Jamito, Caraballo, Medel, Calwell, better wins

    43. Sandy Saddler - Brady, Pep x3, Keery, Acevedo, LaSane, Freeman better wins

    44. Young Corbett III - Conn, Dick Foster, Burke, Glen Lee, Frank Britt, Mickey Walker, Jack Fields all better wins

    45. Billy Conn - Dundee, Yarosz, Corbet III, Apostoli, Krieger, Bettina, Lesnevich, Zale are better wins

    46. Bobo Olson - Gavilan, Turpin, Castellani, Langlois, Maxim, Giambra better wins

    so Floyd and Manny rank at 47-48 with Floyd being higher than Manny since Manny lost to Morales and Marquez, whereas Floyd only lost to Castillo. Floyd's easy dispatching of Marquez also elevates him above Manny who struggled against him badly
     
  10. PernellSweetPea

    PernellSweetPea Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    pernell 23??? hmmmm
     
  11. eltirado

    eltirado Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    George Foreman is below Mayweather...the rest I am not sure until Mayweather retires
     
  12. I Know Everythi

    I Know Everythi Well-Known Member Full Member

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    You dumb human being do you not see the red print saying -
    This content is protected


    I guess I should make it bigger
     
  13. PernellSweetPea

    PernellSweetPea Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    yes dum dum make the lettering bigger.
     
  14. Gambino

    Gambino Member Full Member

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    If boxing_master and green man aren't the same person, they
    definitely play butts and wieners.