Sonny was beat. He had given best. Without the injury, physically, there just was not the rounds left in him to give. You watch the last completed round. Sonny was done. Just Taking shots. Ali was beginning to tee off on him. Sonny too tired to retaliate. That’s a beaten fighter.
Only if you believe that account to the exclusion of others. One of Liston’s cornermen is quoted in a book as saying the shoulder injury was BS cooked up on the spot because they knew there wouldn’t be a rematch if he just quit (David Remnick’s “King of the World,” page 202. The accounts differ. Liston came back to his corner after the sixth round and said “That’s it.” The corner first thought that means he was getting serious, like “that’s it, no more playing around, I’m going to go take this guy out,” Then they realized he meant “that’s it, I’m done.” Sonny did an interview after the fight explaining that he quit because of the shoulder, which he said he injured in the first round (hmm, I thought he was injured before the fight … is either true?). He said he quit. The corner of course probably waved it off. Whether they did so because they thought Sonny unable to continue (kind of odd as in the sixth he threw the left hand almost exclusively, a couple of rights but a lot of jabs and a few hooks — you can watch the film yourself, so he clearly could use it) or because Sonny told them he quit depends on what account you believe. The New York Times’ account from the fight (not years later) says a Liston cornerman told them Sonny said after the sixth round, “I can’t go back.” So it was stopped on his word according to that account written immediately after. I think the commission and later investigation was a whitewash because if the heavyweight championship fight was fixed under their watch, boxing in Miami might have been done. It certainly would have been a black eye and probably wouldn’t help business in the future. Believe what you will, but to act like there are no accounts of Sonny quitting and no one questioning the truth of the injury is intellectually dishonest or lack of elementary research (as in google, click and read). The fight was controversial for a reason. If you do believe he tore his tendon, you have to ask why there’s no surgical scar and how he recovered so quickly from surgery (that left no scar) as to be ready for a rematch a relatively few months later because the only way to repair a torn tendon is surgery. This isn’t as open-and-shut as it might be today. Soft-tissue injuries dont’ show up on X-rays. The MRI hadn’t been invented. So they couldn’t look inside Sonny’s shoulder and say whether he was hurt or just claiming to be hurt. If he had an injury that could be so easily diagnosed after the fight — and had that injury going into the bout — how is it that he passed a prefight physical? The shoulder wasn’t swollen up (see the film). His left arm wasn’t dangling by a thread (see the film). He wasn’t without use of the left arm (see the film). The fact is he could have continued and he didn’t. Here is an account taken from frame-by-frame analysis of the film which concluded that the shoulder was not injured, or at least not in a debilitating way: https://www.researchgate.net/profil...-DURING-THE-FIRST-MATCH-WITH-CASSIUS-CLAY.pdf He raised the left arm 22 times in the sixth round, the right only three. Yet it’s his left shoulder that’s allegedly injured.
Re:Ali-Holmes. Allegedly Dundee stopped the fight but I have read that Herbert Muhammad who was his manager was watching from ringside sent a note to Dundee to stop the fight. That. Fight. Should. Have.Never.Happened.
Sonny, interviewed here by the New York Times, holds that he injured his shoulder in the first round. And that it was not injured in training. So that’s two different accounts — you can’t believe both Sonny and his manager on this; one has to be untrue … but BOTH could be untrue: https://www.nytimes.com/1964/02/27/...rd-hurt-shoulder-exchampion-rates-machen.html Key quote from Sonny, saying he quit because he couldn’t win (he says because of the shoulder), not that he couldn’t go on. He likened it to fighting with one hand handcuffed to a tree (couldn’t use it effectively): “I didn’t think I could take him because I couldn’t take those handcuffs off.” Sonny in his own words: Not “I was physically unable to continue” but rather “I didn’t think I could take him.” He quit. (Sonny’s “shoulder injury” was the Duran “I had cramps” of his day. You can believe it or not believe it, but to insist he did not quit when he admits he did … why would he lie about that?)
The same way Big George was made to whup pressure fighters like Joe Frazier Muhammad Ali was made to whup sluggers like Sonny Liston. The only thing he saved himself from in both fights was a whuppin.
Nice find - some great articles at the Vault. Most articles rarely go into the finer details re the fight being halted - instead they just say Sonny quit or didn’t get off his stool. Many seem to believe that Kostya Tszyu quit outright against Hatton - alternatively, I’ve read that Kostya’s corner asked him if he was good to go for the next round - and that his reply was basically incoherent, an immediate signal for them to stop the fight. Chavez claimed his corner stopped the 2nd fight vs DLH, correct? But there are those who believe that it was Chavez who chose to drop tools himself - and that he was only covering himself with the claim that his corner wouldn’t let him continue.
Bugner is vastly underrated and is more than capable of whupping any boxer six years past his expiration date.
In other words water is wet and the sun hot chok. Nobody is saying Liston was going to come back and win even if he himself believed he could. I'm not even sure what you are trying to but one thing's for certain - it would be to Liston's detriment.
The account is fresh first hand information close to the fight. The New York Times account didn't even name their source or verify. S.I. had verified reputable cornerman. "I just can't go back," a Liston aide reported Sonny to have said.
It's a great article with, as you say, the finer details explained. A great read. There's a lot to take in with events like these and revisionist history often runs riot many years on.
Pat stated "One of Liston’s cornermen is quoted in a book as saying the shoulder injury was BS cooked up on the spot because they knew there wouldn’t be a rematch if he just quit (David Remnick’s “King of the World,” page 202." which is misleading. Remnick said he spoke to one of Liston's corner guys (conveniently he didn't have a name) and said nothing about this supposed conversation until 35 years after the fact. Again a team of doctors, physician, the state attorney, and the Miami Boxing Commission all confirmed Liston had an injury. What was their motive to lie? Were they going to risk their jobs to save Sonny ****ing Liston? Public enemy number one at the time. Really?
Yeah it's certainly rich. Helps sell a book however. How many times have we seen supposed explosive revelations come out many years after the fact in an effort to make money? A mob of doctors and the rest were hardly going to bend over backwards for Liston, he wasn't exactly the golden boy that's for certain. It's not rocket science.
The New York Times account is fresh, first-hand information immediately after the fight. It’s pretty common in journalism that a source can ask not to be identified by name — maybe he didn’t want to say that with his name in the paper because he wanted to be able to keep working with Sonny going forward. Are you suggesting the New York Times just made it up? Now how about what Sonny himself told the New York Times? See the other article I quoted — he said he quit because he thought he couldn’t win. Also, go watch the sixth round. Ask yourself if he looks like a man who can no longer lift his left hand or punch with it — considering he threw dozens of lefts and only like three rights. And let’s say he doesn’t think he can be effective with the left … how many times have we seen fighters continue to try to win one-handed? Why not go out and wing the right? You’re one of the most fearsome punchers in heavyweight history … you couldn’t maybe land a punch that could turn the fight? Probably not, but why not try? Bottom line is there’s no question Sonny quit because he said so himself.
