When should Ali have retired?

Realistically, I think he should've retired after the third Ken Norton fight.

He wasn't going to retire after beating Foreman. He was in amazing shape for that one. Totally sharp. They thought there would be a Foreman rematch. That's why he stuck around.

I remember as a kid the third Norton fight being a very big deal.

World Heavyweight Title. Yankee Stadium. Riot Night in New York.

It was controversial, but he won. There was no slurred speech. He was still a dangerous heavyweight. But starting to slip.

Shortly after, Foreman was accused of raping some woman, either after the Ledoux or Denis fight, and George was going off the rails. Then George lost to Young and retired.

Ali should've retired, too, at 53-2 and let Norton and Young fight for the vacant belt.

He already had two wins over Norton and one over Young.

During the broadcast of Bobick-Wepner in October 1976, everyone was openly talking about Ali announcing his retirement within days.

That's when it should've happened.

1977 didn't need to happen. That's when people started noticing a difference in his speech. After the third Norton fight, Ali went 3-3 in his last six.

1976 should've been the last year. Ali and Frazier could've left together, with George right behind them.

 

After Foreman. He had nothing left to prove and there's a good chance he'd have escaped with his health intact. In reality, though, the Foreman win just ramped up the gravy train for his flunkies. He was never getting out until he'd been rinsed pf every last drop of himself. And that's what we saw in the Holmes fight 6 years later.

 

When did Foreman get accused of sodomising someone?

 

Aroun about after Chuck Wepner !

 

Yeah I don't remember that either.

 

Yes a good time to leave ,and if not ,certainly after Manila.

 

After Manila.

Even if you put the massive issue of health concerns to one side, he just seemed to be going through the motions in his fights from then on.

The only two fights after Manila where Ali really got in shape (the third Norton fight and the rematch with Spinks) showed that even when he was motivated and in condition he was a shadow of the fighter he once was.

But he was never going to retire, he talked about retirement after Zaire and Manila but still carried on.

He said the second fight with Spinks was definitely his last fight and he would be a fool to come back. Yet, what did he do two years later?

 

Manila ... there was nothing left to prove after that. Both he and Frazier left pretty much everything they had in the ring that day. Nobody would have blamed him a bit if he walked away after putting in that kind of effort.

 

In terms of health after beating Foreman. In terms of legacy and to cap the greatest era of Hwt boxing, after regaining the title from Spinks. The first 3 times heavyweight champ in history. The perfect ending.

 

after superfight 3, 1975

even before that, it had been noted that Ali's speech had slowed going back to 1971

 

After the Foreman fight would've been wonderful, but who retires after a career-high win like that? Gene Tunney? The few guys who "got out on top" - Rocky Marciano, Lennox Lewis - were showing signs of slippage on those last bouts. So if Ali would've taken that route it would've been after Frazier III, in a "this is too tough, I don't want to put myself through this anymore" sort of way.

But Ali took the human nature route. He shouldn't have lost to a guy like Spinks, but he got himself into good shape and easily won the rematch. He even retired after that one. So far, so good. Then he lost to Holmes, but there's no shame in losing to an ATG in his prime at Ali's age. Okay, one more go. Berbick... He can't lose to someone like Berbick and expect to compete at top level. Time to hang 'em up. Human nature. At least he didn't stick around fighting ham 'n eggers, making money off his name, winning some and losing some like many champs who came before him and after.

So yeah... ideally he retires after Foreman. That wasn't going to happen, so he should've retired after Frazier III.

 

For his own sake, after Zaire. For fans, after Manilla. He did nothing worthwhile in sporting terms after Manilla and the money he earned didn't really compensate for the health issues he accumulated.

 

He first mentioned it when Tyson went to jail for ****. George said something along the lines that he'd done the same thing but hadn't been charged so there but for the grace of God, or something like that. It was reported in some boxing mags at the time and a few news outlets. And people were kind of shocked, because nobody recalled it. In Foreman's biography, he brings it up, too, but a little differently. It was in New York, before the Ledoux fight. Foreman says an old girlfriend showed up. She'd shown up before the Jody Ballard fight and it had turned into a brawl. She showed up for the Ledoux fight again and she agreed to "spend the night." According to Foreman, he said he gave her an envelope of money and he says she got angry because he was treating her like a *****. Then they got into it again. She ended with a bloody face, but he couldn't remember hitting her. She called the police from the hotel and accused him of beating her and having sex with her against her will. The cops showed up. Foreman talked about how Don King was on the phone with the woman trying to convince her not to press charges because the fight was about to air live on CBS and Foreman was about to sign a big deal with ABC and all that, so I can't recall if they paid her off or what. There have been numerous mentions of it over the years. Nobody seemed to want to go on record with the whole story. There's just George's side, which was reviewed by his lawyer before the book was printed. I haven't read the book in a while. Tom Brookshier, one of the announcers, even kind of alluded to it on the broadcast at the end of the during his interview with Foreman because, by then, the gossip had begun. Brookshier called it a legal issue. And Foreman basically said everyone should mind their own business.

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I disagree. He won the title for the 3rd time. First fighter to ever do so. That's no small potato!