I recently watched Vitali's fight with Danny Williams. I started to wonder if Vitali or Lennox went back in time how they would fare against other heavyweights of the past. Other than Liston, Ali and Holmes, i see very few past great champions being competetive against a Vitali or Lennox. Even Jim Jeffries who at 6'2 and 220 lbs would be a small heavyweight if he fought today. Vitali at 6'7 250lbs with an enormous 29.5 inch armpit to the end of the fist reach I believe would be too much for many iof the champions of the past. unless a freak incident like VK injuring his shoulder during a fight, I really cant see the smaller champions of the past winning. True, Danny Williams doesnt have the technical ability of a Max Schmeling, Jersey Joe Walcott, or Ezzard Charles, but Williams hit very hard, was 270 lbs that Klitschko knocked around the ring for the entire duration of their fight, and had tons of heart. In the past there were giants like Willard and Carnera, but Klitsckos and lewis's of today finally were able to combine size with great boxing ability and power. What are your thoughts?
IT WOULD BE HARD FOR ALL EXCEPT THOSE WHO DIDNT FIGHT TALL,IF THEY STAND STRAIGHT ,LIKE ALI,FOREMAN,WILLARD,LOUIS,BUT FOR THOSE WHO DIDNT THOSE THAT COULD CAPITILIZED ON HEIGHTH ,SLIPPING,DODGING,DUCKING LANDING,HOOKS,UPPERCUTS,AND BODY BLOWS IT WOULD BE AN ADVANTAGE ,GENERATING EVEN MORE POWER WITH THERE LEGS,SUCH AS ROCKY,FRAZIER,AND MAINLy DEMPSEY HE CAPITILIZED ON LARGE OPP.
Of course, when you see hulks like Klitschko and Lewis who also has good speed and boxing skills it seems unlikely that the smaller guys could be much of a challenge. But it's easy to overestimate size. Smaller HW's like Holyfield and Byrd (as well as Toney and RJJ) have done well in recent times without being outragously skilled or having a freak set of abilities (Rocky's stamina, Dempsey's explosiveness etc). So one shouldn't really discard the possibility. But as the previous poster I would give a greater chance to the crouching type of fighters like Dempsey and Rocky than a straight standing type like Louis. Great as Louis was I see Wladimir' jab and powerful straight right causing him all kinds of trouble. Of course, much lesser fighters than Louis have beat Wladimir and you really have to think twice before you favour anyone over Louis, but stylistically I think Wladimir is a more diffiult prospect for him than for example Marciano.
Thoughts? Williams main problem in that fight was that he was a comonwealth grade heavyweight fighting the world champion not the disparity in size.
GoldenHulk, What do you think Vitlai would do to some 200 pound fighters with old timer lighter gloves?
Being bigger and taller alone is not going to over come a more skilled boxer but knowing how to use a size advantage will give a boer with less skill a huge advantage. In other words Lennox Lewis, Wladimir Klitschko, Riddick Bowe, and Vitali Klitschko would all do very well if they got into a time mechine and fought the great heavyweights of the past.
The poster that mentioned smaller heavyweights that fight small as being able to compete hit it right on the head. Guys like Tunney and Ali would have more problems with a tall boxer-puncher like the Klitschkos and Lewis than someone like Marciano, Tyson, or Dempsey would. A fairly common aspect of great H2H fighters' styles is that they either fought very tall (Lewis and to a lesser extend Tunney/Ali/Holmes and co.) or very small (Dempsey, Tyson, Marciano).
I think the Klitschko's or Lewis fighting with lighter gloves would seriously hurt an under 200 pound fighter. I respect Marciano, Patterson, Charles, Walcott, etc. But these guys give up too much physically. As for Chris Byrd, he was an excellent defensive fighter who was way behind on the scorecards when Vitali retired with a shoulder injury. Joe Byrd, Chris's father and trainer always insisted that Vitali was the better fighter than Wladimir by the way.
danny williams is all right. you could hardly say vitali was a great fighter either. he was outgunned of course. but i think this is more to do with his style of fight.being straight up while swarming... it equals walking in on shots when your most vulnarable.
A lot of the old timers always told me a perfect Heavy would be around 6"1 6"2... 210-220, so I guess Joe Louis would be the perfect example...Lennox, Vlad, and Vitali are the best of the big men...but McCline,Goofi,Tye Fields and Valuev are also Big men..In Louis's day there was 6"6 Buddy Baer...does anyone really think Vlad or Vitali or Lewis would have no problem vs Louis...There have been some good Big men Lewis,Vitali and Vlad but before them WHO...and Valuev, Goofi W. McCline and Fields have all lost to smaller men....so I don't think size is an issue
Regarding The Lighter Gloves The Old Timers Proved They Could Take Those Shots,unlike Todays Heavys With Heavier Gloves.and Here Go (above) With Alot Believing Todays Heavier Opp. Having So Much More Power As Ive Stated Before Once You Reach A Certain Size,180-190-200-220-the Punch Depends More On The Individual.such As Fraziers Left Hook Was Definatly No Harder Than 185 Pnd Dempsey,or 328 Pnd. Valuevs Right Hand Is Defitnatly No Harder Than Rockys Ect.-ect-ect.
If we worry about size then Valuev is the greatest of all, a good powerful fighter in the Dempsey, Marciano, Frazier and Tyson mould will always do well but they would have to be quick and Holyfield would do well especially against Wlad.
I agree that size alone doesnt make a great champ. If it was that easy then any basketball player would be putting a pair of boxing gloves on, and there are many examples of big men who failed big, I think of Michael Grant most recently. It's the guys who know how to use their height, reach and their range, like Lewis and the Klitschko's that I'm talking about. Emanuel Steward seems like the ideal trainer for tall fighters, in the lighter weights he had tall guys like Hilmer Kenty, Milton McCrory, and his most famous Thomas Hearns, among others and he trained Lewis for the second half of his career and now has Wlad. If I was a tall heavyweight I would want Steward in my corner rather than anyone.
Unfortunately, at some point simply being bigger is a (pardon the pun) massive advantage. The old adage of a good big man beating a good little man is indeed true. Bowe v Holyfield 1 is a good example - Holy fought a valiant, courageous fight but Bowe outweighed him by 30 pounds, and it was telling, especially in that type of fight. Being bigger is a real advantage in fights of attrition, where the bigger man can use the size and weight advantage against you by leaning on you, pushing you around and making you work twice as hard as he does. He can wear you down. If the big guy has a good chin, decent skills and knows how to use his size to his advantage, he is going to be tough to beat, like Valuev. Let's face it - Valuev isn't particularly talented but he has sufficient ability that, when coupled with his vast size, is a hard package to beat. If Nikolai was only 6'2 and 235, he'd probably have lost more than once. It's his immensity that has helped him more than anything else at the end of the day. Obviously Valuev is an exception but the good big men of the modern era - the likes of Bowe, Lewis, the Klitschkos - would be bad news for many arguably more technically talented fighters of the past. I can't imagine small heavyweights like Ezzard Charles, Joe Walcott and Floyd Patterson being competitive against them. Great heavies like Joe Louis, Jack Dempsey and Marciano would also immediately be at a tremendous size disadvantage. Even if they did win, they would have had to work twice as hard as they would normally had they fought similarly sized opposition. As much as I am a fan, I have to be honest. Rocky warred with Charles, Walcott and LaStarza - all of them much smaller and physically less imposing than a Bowe, Lewis or Klitschko. If a Charles was tough for the Rock, how tough would a Lewis be, a guy not only some 60 pounds heavier than Charles, but also several inches taller and with a much bigger punch? Ditto Bowe, ditto the Klits. ****, even an on-form Golota would be really tough. Sacrilege? I'm a big believer in the theory of natural selection. In the 60's the heavyweights started getting bigger, Liston being probably the first true modern heavyweight. However, other big guys like Ali, Terrell, Williams and other weren't long in coming. Suddenly, the smaller heavyweights like Patterson found it tough to compete, because suddenly technical competence alone wasn't enough. The heavies needed to get bigger, and during the 70's and 80's they did. The average size of your basic big man of the 70's was larger than during the 20's. 30's, 40's etc. In many ways, bigger size means more efficiency. You can do more with less effort. I'm sure most here have play wrestled with an older brother, cousin or friend. I used to, and after three minuted I was exhausted because I had to work twice as hard as he did. So, what does the future hold? It looks like heavies are getting bigger yet, judging from some of the monsters coming through. I think the (rumoured) plan of reducing championship rounds to just 10 in the future will help the big man even more, as endurance and stamina will not be as big a factor as it was in the past. It's a pity that size plays such an important part in fighting because I am more entertained watching the likes of Joe Louis or Marciano than most of the lumbering giants of today, but what can you do?