When was George Foreman at his best as a fighter?

cross_trainer · Jun 7, 2025 at 8:17 AM

Rollin said: ↑

Journ, you only need to turn on the as much as the Young, Norton, and Ali bouts to see him duck down below the first lead hook that tries to go around his jab-jamming extended rear hand. I cannot point at specific bouts precisely because of what I mentioned before—it's a part of his style he would visit, not a go-to way to defend and set-up counters. Saying he had no head-movement would mean he would get nailed far more that he was, especially with that stoppage orientated style.

What I can recommend to look for during case study is taking into account that:

a) Foreman will rarely slip sideways, like you slip straight punches, because his extended hands were supposed to take those punches off, or make them difficult to land. They were making that space 'busy' so to speak. On the other hand, you could 'cross' them, much like say a leftie crosses your jab with his straight left, or how Ezzard Charles punched right-on-right while betting he will take his head off-line. Ali wanted Kenny to do just that when he screamed 'right hand, right hand' in Caracas.

b) Foreman was notoriously difficult to land a left hook on. His preference for biceps and shoulder stops meant looping punches were difficult to land clean on him with full leverage and power transfer. He furthermore had that drilled response of ducking down just enough to let the hook only wrap around his head. He didn't need to go lower, because proper long guard only leaves certain angles to hook around.

c) When Foreman fought tall, he fought tall. And a lot of his opponents were shorter, nimbler movers (part of the reason pretty much nobody being able to control the center of the ring against him is a testament to his ring-cutting, because Roman despite the B-class that he was, should have come with running shoes to Tokyo, and yet failed to flee.) In such instances, he will more often frame and push while moving backwards, occasionally moving his head down and forward to make the hooks flying around his extended arms miss.

d) Foreman was a knockout artist. Which means, yeah, he will get nailed looking for that punch, though really not enough to label him as reckless. At the end of the day he was a meteorite though, looking for collision. To his credit, he did began reinventing himself under Clancy, and further reinvented himself during his comeback. George was young than me when he fought veteran Ali in Zaire. He was my age (28) when he retired (an age when some are only considered entering their prime.) Who knows how he would enter the Holmes era had he stayed focused and willing.

Now, I do understand your points. Foreman absolutely can get overhyped, or at least praised without understanding of his actual strengths and shortcomings. I find it a tad unfair to compare him to Cooney or Sanders though. What the hell has Gerry done after blasting few ancient corpses and losing to Holmes? Got stopped by Spinks and fueled Foreman's comeback campaign. Sanders got stopped twice by Tubbs and Rahman (which to my understanding is why Rahman got the shot at Lewis), and before finding the china of Klitschko, his most notable wins included destruction of a veteran Bert Cooper and... (?). After an over one year layoff split only by an exhibition, coming off the loss against Ali which by his own admission left him depressed, and with a new trainer, while trying to force a new boxer-like image, Foreman pushed through Lyle who just stopped Shavers and was long-time ranked contender (and would go on to be ranked, having the Bugner and LeDoux wins ahead of him yet, both of which were ranked with Joe being a mainstay name.) George clearly looked off in that bout but he pushed through hell to get the win. That alone ascends him beyond Gerry and Corrie in my book, skills and resume aside (can't you make a provocative if not entirely unreasonable case for comeback Foreman having comparable of better resume than Cooney or Sanders?)

I cannot find the link to the Ring panel, hopefully Turki did not delete some older content, but trainers, fighters, matchmakers, and historians ranking George usually had him at around 6th to 10th place, because as you mentioned, the likes of Holmes, Louis, or Ali simply had the resume and did not drop the ball in two important bouts (gee, the damn hypejob has nothing on those literal top 5 ATG of the division, what a sad make-believe of a fighter). George's comeback was miraculous (calculated), but it did not translate into sheer top five greatness the way a long prime career of taking names and kicking butts does. Matchmakers on the other hand though? Matchmakers had him third. His style and knockouts were like a herd of cash-cows for the likes of Don King who outright harassed Foreman to get him back into the ring post-Young (despite King telling George to slow down in the very same bout so that he can fill his pockets with ads revenue), his comeback was a marketing masterpiece which sidelined worthy contenders and made the bouts like Foreman-Tyson immensely attractive for nations like China who offered 25 mills for it to take place in Beijing if I remember correctly. Rumble in the Jungle was one of the only two bouts (the second was Hagler-Leonard) my father got to watch in the Eastern Bloc, and is an universally recognized top 10 of the most important heavyweight bouts, with When We Were Kings winning a ****ing Oscar for how they captured the magnitude of the bout.

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Philosopher · Jun 7, 2025 at 9:44 AM

ETM said: ↑

John i agree he was better in his prime. How do you think if the old and young version would face each other. Does old Foreman's strenghts nullify the younger man's aggression?
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I have said this often but for me the Foreman who fought Evander beats any version of his younger self. Comfortably.

Journeyman92 · Jun 7, 2025 at 2:40 PM

he grant said: ↑

I thought he was amazing in Frazier 2.

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Huh didn’t you see how an out character Frazier with a little movement troubled the guy?

Journeyman92 · Jun 7, 2025 at 2:33 PM

Rollin said: ↑

Shoutout to @Journeyman92 because verbally sparring him will sharpen anybody.
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That’s a nice thing to say, I don’t agree but thank you R.

Journeyman92 · Jun 7, 2025 at 2:44 PM

Rollin said: ↑

Journ, you only need to turn on the as much as the Young, Norton, and Ali bouts to see him duck down below the first lead hook that tries to go around his jab-jamming extended rear hand. I cannot point at specific bouts precisely because of what I mentioned before—it's a part of his style he would visit, not a go-to way to defend and set-up counters. Saying he had no head-movement would mean he would get nailed far more that he was, especially with that stoppage orientated style.

What I can recommend to look for during case study is taking into account that:

a) Foreman will rarely slip sideways, like you slip straight punches, because his extended hands were supposed to take those punches off, or make them difficult to land. They were making that space 'busy' so to speak. On the other hand, you could 'cross' them, much like say a leftie crosses your jab with his straight left, or how Ezzard Charles punched right-on-right while betting he will take his head off-line. Ali wanted Kenny to do just that when he screamed 'right hand, right hand' in Caracas.

b) Foreman was notoriously difficult to land a left hook on. His preference for biceps and shoulder stops meant looping punches were difficult to land clean on him with full leverage and power transfer. He furthermore had that drilled response of ducking down just enough to let the hook only wrap around his head. He didn't need to go lower, because proper long guard only leaves certain angles to hook around.

c) When Foreman fought tall, he fought tall. And a lot of his opponents were shorter, nimbler movers (part of the reason pretty much nobody being able to control the center of the ring against him is a testament to his ring-cutting, because Roman despite the B-class that he was, should have come with running shoes to Tokyo, and yet failed to flee.) In such instances, he will more often frame and push while moving backwards, occasionally moving his head down and forward to make the hooks flying around his extended arms miss.

d) Foreman was a knockout artist. Which means, yeah, he will get nailed looking for that punch, though really not enough to label him as reckless. At the end of the day he was a meteorite though, looking for collision. To his credit, he did began reinventing himself under Clancy, and further reinvented himself during his comeback. George was young than me when he fought veteran Ali in Zaire. He was my age (28) when he retired (an age when some are only considered entering their prime.) Who knows how he would enter the Holmes era had he stayed focused and willing.

Now, I do understand your points. Foreman absolutely can get overhyped, or at least praised without understanding of his actual strengths and shortcomings. I find it a tad unfair to compare him to Cooney or Sanders though. What the hell has Gerry done after blasting few ancient corpses and losing to Holmes? Got stopped by Spinks and fueled Foreman's comeback campaign. Sanders got stopped twice by Tubbs and Rahman (which to my understanding is why Rahman got the shot at Lewis), and before finding the china of Klitschko, his most notable wins included destruction of a veteran Bert Cooper and... (?). After an over one year layoff split only by an exhibition, coming off the loss against Ali which by his own admission left him depressed, and with a new trainer, while trying to force a new boxer-like image, Foreman pushed through Lyle who just stopped Shavers and was long-time ranked contender (and would go on to be ranked, having the Bugner and LeDoux wins ahead of him yet, both of which were ranked with Joe being a mainstay name.) George clearly looked off in that bout but he pushed through hell to get the win. That alone ascends him beyond Gerry and Corrie in my book, skills and resume aside (can't you make a provocative if not entirely unreasonable case for comeback Foreman having comparable of better resume than Cooney or Sanders?)

I cannot find the link to the Ring panel, hopefully Turki did not delete some older content, but trainers, fighters, matchmakers, and historians ranking George usually had him at around 6th to 10th place, because as you mentioned, the likes of Holmes, Louis, or Ali simply had the resume and did not drop the ball in two important bouts (gee, the damn hypejob has nothing on those literal top 5 ATG of the division, what a sad make-believe of a fighter). George's comeback was miraculous (calculated), but it did not translate into sheer top five greatness the way a long prime career of taking names and kicking butts does. Matchmakers on the other hand though? Matchmakers had him third. His style and knockouts were like a herd of cash-cows for the likes of Don King who outright harassed Foreman to get him back into the ring post-Young (despite King telling George to slow down in the very same bout so that he can fill his pockets with ads revenue), his comeback was a marketing masterpiece which sidelined worthy contenders and made the bouts like Foreman-Tyson immensely attractive for nations like China who offered 25 mills for it to take place in Beijing if I remember correctly. Rumble in the Jungle was one of the only two bouts (the second was Hagler-Leonard) my father got to watch in the Eastern Bloc, and is an universally recognized top 10 of the most important heavyweight bouts, with When We Were Kings winning a ****ing Oscar for how they captured the magnitude of the bout.

We can disagree on George's style and efficacy, but let's give credit where credit is due—Foreman was a fantastic entertainer and businessman sparking flames in the mind of general public (the Cooney stoppage, sweet Jesus), maneuvering around crones like Arum who would sell his comeback story with a few careless fights against young, fresh contenders with time to rebuild, and participating in some of the most important bouts in the eras he participated in.
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I read this and I keep thinking to myself how Toney would… but seriously, I’ll response to this properly later, this is a thoughtful post and doesn’t deserve something whipped up pre coffee - mid dog walk I hope you’re having a nice afternoon? Morning? Whichever wherever you are comrade.

he grant · Jun 7, 2025 at 2:38 PM

Journeyman92 said: ↑

Huh didn’t you see how an out character with. little movement troubled the guy?
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I see it as he kept his cool , did not throw senseless punches in wild fashion, paced himself, threw terrific , measured, insanely hard punches and to me look like a far more polished fighter than before or after ...

Rollin · Jun 7, 2025 at 3:22 PM

Journeyman92 said: ↑

I read this and I keep thinking to myself how Toney would… but seriously, I’ll response to this properly later, this is a thoughtful post and doesn’t deserve something whipped up pre coffee - mid dog walk I hope you’re having a nice afternoon? Morning? Whichever wherever you are comrade.
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Was rewatching Abuelo Ortiz and kept thinking Floyd would... Treating myself to some Toney-Jirov masterpiece now.

ETM · Jun 7, 2025 at 3:57 PM

Journeyman92 said: ↑

Huh didn’t you see how an out character Frazier with a little movement troubled the guy?
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Only in comparision to the first fight carnage. Joe landed a few counters but Foreman was in total control from bell to bell.

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When was George Foreman at his best as a fighter?

When was George Foreman at his best as a fighter?

70s first career

Comeback career

cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

Philosopher Active Member Full Member

Journeyman92 Out For Milk Full Member

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he grant Historian/Film Maker

Rollin Boxing Addict Full Member

ETM I thought I did enough to win. Full Member

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When was George Foreman at his best as a fighter?

When was George Foreman at his best as a fighter?

70s first career

Comeback career

cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

Philosopher Active Member Full Member

Journeyman92 Out For Milk Full Member

Journeyman92 Out For Milk Full Member

Journeyman92 Out For Milk Full Member

he grant Historian/Film Maker

Rollin Boxing Addict Full Member

ETM I thought I did enough to win. Full Member