When would have been the perfect time for Ali to retire?

I think it is a wonderful notion that boxers could be looked after by trusted advisors who genuinely cared for them. Who would try to save them from the worst of their excesses, instead of sending them out to get seriously injured for money.

This thread title asks for 'perfect'...implying a world where we imagine such ideal conditions existed for Ali.

Yes you did say that all along...sorry mate, I should have acknowledged that in my post. I focused on the part of your post where we seemed to be in disagreement. In fact, we look to be in general agreement, now. Perhaps my usage of the term 'meaningless' in posts #37 and #38 was too strong. I should have specified 'comparatively meaningless.' (although I did give Ali credit for the damaging Shavers win).

I watched some of the pre-fight interviews Ali gave before fighting Foreman that they re-ran for his 70th birthday - and he kept going on about how this was definitely his last fight. Ah, if only he would have kept his word, he would probably be in much better health today.

I'm sure it had a lot to do with the sheer number of blows over a long career, including many from some of the hardest punchers of all time.

Ali had been boxing since he was 12 years old, and I would imagine the brain is more susceptible to injury while it is still forming?

Also, I think many people don't realise that Ali was taking a lot of additional punishment in regular sparring sessions with the somewhat masochistic way he trained. All that was more damage to his brain that was cumulatively worsening his health.

Tim Witherspoon recalled getting in many shots to Ali's head while he was training for Berbick.

But looking at the wars with Frazier, Norton, Foreman and Shavers (and many, many others) ...not to mention the beatings from Holmes* and Berbick when Ali couldn't defend himself properly...I think those filmed beatings alone would be enough to give anyone brain damage.


*Stallone said the Ali-Holmes fight was "like an autopsy on a live man."

 

If he loses to frazier and retires then people would be arguing between him and frazier and not between him and louis.

 

I agree with McGrain.

Ali being the first man to win the heavyweight title 3X is a great accomplishment. A HOF accomplishment when you think about it. It's been diminished by the Holyfield plights of recent year and other fighters who have won some sort of heavyweight belt more than 3 times. The question here is was it worth the cost of Ali's health considering his condition right now? Healthwise, those who say retiring after Zaire are bang-on realistically. Even after the FOTC, retiring doesn't seem that strange considering that Marciano left the game early too. For Ali though, it would be all wrong for him psychologically and there's no way the champion of the 60's would bow out of the sport after his first loss and arguably the biggest fight of his career. Both Ali and Frazier were diminishing, moreso Joe after the FOTC. Their competitive relationship for a lot of reasons made their careers so memorable. You know Ali was going to rematch Frazier en route to a rematch with Foreman. You know he was always trying to better Frazier by beating the guy he couldn't beat twice(Foreman)and knocking out another tough guy (Bonavena),who had Joe on the canvas twice.

Having Norton, Shavers and Lyle on your resume of wins does contribute to his legacy. These fights were legendary but it took away more from his health. Regardless of what's in the record book, Ali lost the third fight with Norton. Popular opinion says it today even more. Watch it again. There aren't enough rounds to score this fight cleanly for Ali. Don King's boxing world needed Ali and they couldn't take the risk of him losing another fight and retiring subsequently in the press conference. Shavers landed some brutal shots in a hard fight which could tell you about Ali's toughness. Ali got beat to the hips and body against Foreman and never really took that clean shot to the head that Norton and Frazier were victim to. Don't get me wrong, George landed a bellringer or two on Ali, but not the kind of uppercut that put Joe on the mat or the straight right that finished Norton. Lyle was winning his fight with Ali before Ali pulled it out with his trademark flurry.

Can't say the man didn't sacrifice to become the Greatest.

 

After his fight with Bonavena. That way, he's an undefeated heavyweight champion with a mystique of social activism and a great "what-might-have-been" against Frazier. His supporters would claim he'd have easily trounced Joe if not for the career-ending minor injury (whatever it was).

And he doesn't get brain damage.

 

Disagreed. Even just "stealing" a win against a future HOFer at his peak, when Ali was well past his own prime, is a fairly commendable achievement.

Withstanding a "beating" from such an ATG hitter should probably be considered something of an achievement in itself, though. Ali demonstrated that, even at near age forty, he could shake off punches that HOFers like Holmes and Norton were floored by.

Disagreed totally. By winning the title for a 3rd time at nearly age forty, Ali achieved something that no other HW champ before him had been able to accomplish - and arguably, no one since, since it could be argued that Ali is the only one to win the REAL title 3 times. Regardless of the circumstances in which Ali won the title 3 times, no other HW champ before (or since?) had been able to do the same feat under any circumstances.

 

After foreman he wouldve been punch drunk like some other boxers but probably wouldve been able to speak today and have a lot better health.

:hat

 

Good point,lufcrazy.

 

after Manilla.

Not sure about the Parkinsons thing, you cant rule out that it was completely genetic (well at least back then you couldnt) - if totally genes, Manilla would be premature.

I used to dream of Ali coming back in the 1980s and taking on young Tyson lol.

 

We'll just have to agree to disagree. Sure, as we've seen in this thread, it is possible to argue that Ali limping along after his last great performance in Manila and until his hideous destruction in the Holmes debacle was somehow "worth it." (The mortal remains of a once great fighter, shambling through embarrassingly bad opponents and performances, highly controversial decisions, horrific beatings and an embarrassing loss to a novice...Not my cup of tea, thanks.)

The whole Spinks loss and rematch were a joke. Spinks was specifically chosen because he was an easy fight for Ali - and Ali still lost. Ali was a shell, and only won the rematch because Spinks had imploded with the fame going to his head: Hard partying, drink, drugs, arrest...and practically no training at all. The whole business was a farce.

Again, this thread is called 'When would have been the perfect time for Ali to retire?' Not 'When had Ali wrung every last drop out of his aging and ailing carcass?'

The correct answer to the OP question is "Ali should have retired after Zaire for the best balance of legacy and health."

or

"Ali should have retired for the best legacy after Manila, but with some cost to his health."

I believe Manila was the last sane exit point if we care at all about Ali's health. The damage he took there was considerable "I felt near death" Ali said. That was a clear warning sign to call it a day and stop fighting.

It is tragic that Ali and his team ignored it.