Where do you draw the line at Heavyweight vs Super Heavyweight ?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by he grant, Apr 21, 2018.


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  1. Radrook

    Radrook Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Weird how just a few pounds are a big issue in the lower weight divisions and suddenly mean zilch once the HW division is reached.
     
    Radrook, Apr 28, 2018
    Radrook, Apr 28, 2018
    #181
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  2. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Aye you do get a lot of that.

    I've heard some decent arguments about diminishing returns and % of bodyweight and all that stuff, but, in the end, i've heard bantamweights describe the new difficulties in moving to featherweight etc. and there's just no way to paint that as "less than" a very small old-school heavyweight against a very big new-school heavyweight.

    Of course, a small heavyweight can beat a big heavyweight. But it would be nice if everyone accepted that there are limits and moved on.

    But it'll never ****ing happen.
     
    McGrain, Apr 28, 2018
    McGrain, Apr 28, 2018
    #182
  3. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    The majority of the time even I accept that. But why should anybody “move on” when it comes to comparing special fighters with less special fighters.

    Would you pick Jean Pierre Coopman to beat Carlos Monzon?
     
    choklab, Apr 28, 2018
    choklab, Apr 28, 2018
    #183
  4. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    There are people - and you're the worst offender, let's not deny it - who will do almost anything to enhance the h2h standing of certain fighters.

    That's what makes the weight argument so fierce.

    I mean really, why is it even an argument? It doesn't matter. You see size as a major deciding factor in fights over and over again. Sometimes the little guy over comes that indelible advantage. So it can happen. But it's not that important.

    It's important on here because fans of certain fighters want so fervently to enhance the standing of those fighters they either pretend not to understand fighting or chose not to understand fighting in order to continue to enhance that fighter's standing.

    But, either way, talk seriously like they do.

    I suppose there will be people who honestly believe that Marciano or Fitzsimmons should be favoured - FAVOURED - over Lennox Lewis and genuinely know fighting, but they're few and far between i'd say. (Not a lot of people believe this at all in fairness, but it's the most extreme example i've worked with).

    Anyway. People with near religious devotion to their favourites vs. people who genuinely believe they see intellectually dishonesty at work is always going to be horrible and ugly. And that's why it should be left behind. If a 245lb world class fighter and a 180lb world class fighter ever do meet - say in a futuristic thunderdome for some inexplicable reason, cos it ain't happening in boxing - we all know who will be the overwhelming favourite. And there's about as much reason to squabble about that as there is about Lewis vs Marciano.

    So, yeah, best left.

    But like I said.

    It'll never ****ing happen.

    Your specific question though - it's pretty boring. But have at you.
     
    McGrain, Apr 28, 2018
    McGrain, Apr 28, 2018
    #184
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  5. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    I agree with you. Cruiser is heavy. It definitely is. If we want to record the lineage of proper heavyweights then the 220lb guys are now genuinely in the cruiserweight division.

    I believe the word cruiserweight is not fit for purpose. Recently, perfectly understandable divisions were renamed for no reason. Light welterweight became super lightweight and so forth. Nobody asked for that. Yet we have heavyweights languishing in the cruiserweight division whilst guys the size of Amateur Superheavyweights get called heavyweight?

    So far as comparisons go, I would much rather see Superheavyweights of different eras compared to each other rather than with the real heavyweights. not because the comparison is so physically unfair but because one division could not possibly exist as it does before a certain time.

    It seems a large part of what is responsible for such colossal weight discrepancies between eras is as much to do with what new limits can be achieved from modern strength and conditioning. It cannot be proved how much of a fighters prowess can be attributed to this factor or if it compensates entirely for anything else. So I would rather see the Superheavyweight set adrift into a separate comparison category altogether. Manuel Charr vs Jess Willard. That kind of thing.
     
    choklab, Apr 28, 2018
    choklab, Apr 28, 2018
    #185
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