Where do you draw the line at Heavyweight vs Super Heavyweight ?

I like Tyson Fury but the way he throws some of those punches, if he was an old 1910 boxer, you'd never hear the end of how primitive and lacking in technique he is, he'd be dismissed as a barroom brawler, a farmhand or a hobo off a carnival tent.
By his own admission he's no athlete, just a fighter. A fat gypsy who likes a few beers.

Modern nutrition, bro.

 

Yup. It’s progress...

 

But cruisers have got bigger. On the night they are Muhammad Ali sized. That is no cruiserweight. So what does cruiserweight even mean anymore?

I think that division, cruiserweight, if it must exist at all, should be called “Heavyweight” as it is in the Amateur sport.

The heavyweight division has been taken over by Superheavyweights.

 

Cruiserweight nowadays means both fighters weigh in at 200 pounds or less, albeit the day before the fight.
You can take it or leave it.
Maybe a lot of guys in the heavyweight division are the same size as that, but making the weight is a discipline in itself, that explains a lot.

Like I said, divisions are mostly arbitrary.

Deontay Wilder is Muhammad Ali sized.
They are heavyweights.
As is Nicolay Valuev.
& Dustin Nichols.

 

I don't, and I do feel like those who do and those who are only interested in boxing history to a point or specific era are one in the same. I'm saying you have to be ignorant to buy into the idea that the system born out of warfare has no answer or theory for size because a few thousand years later we made a sport with weight classes out of it.

Rocky Marciano would beat the ever living **** out of Anthony Joshua and he'd do it using some ancient techniques.

Give me a ballet. What the **** is this " But him big doe" BS? Him big doe so I dunt needstah think none more.... How? How does Joshua who suffers from posturing issues beat the greatest posture fighter to ever lace up? Joshua's gonna control the gap is he? What with his track fighting like he's on a fencing stage or in Frank Dux's Kumite?

Dude has nothing for Marciano. How the **** is Joshua gonna deliver that power without being stretched out? His footworK? yeah....he's gonna out cut Rock, smoke another bowl. Posturing? The kid can't even maintain proper posture on a heavybag let alone an actual fight. His positioning? Lot of good that's done him so far what with him seeing the mat against every opponent with the power to put him down.

Marciano destroys that boy and it wouldn't even be a difficult fight. Crouch in, swing a left hook to phantom overhead right to cross step leaping left hook, fight over. Why? Because Joshua is gonna react like a boxer. He uses boxing theory, he wants to hit and not be hit, he's going to try to step where safe is and because of that he's gonna be knocked out just like all those fantastic boxers who could actually move and actually had excellent gap control did.

If boxing is a chess match or a puzzle in some form what is it you claim Joshua presents that Marciano couldn't figure out? Joshua moves better than an old Moore does he? Got better defense? Feets? Posture, positioning, patience, powerline? No? Then the **** is he but a big mook lucky he lives in an era when a ****ing pivot is rarified has the height of attainable boxing skills? Speaking of pivots, when the **** is AJ gonna become proficient with them?

No one questions size fetish in pro wrestling, but once you legitimize the fight now size fetish isn't the reason you pick the biggen to win? Sure bubba. I believe you've weighed the measure of skills what with your talking about size and how you feel about size in vague terms like "good big man" that sweeps skillset right under the rug as if no good big man working any staple in boxing ever has a skill set that just happens to play into a much smaller man's game. That is exactly what AJ to Marciano is. A big fella with absolutely no answer for the smaller while the smaller's answer to the biggen is to use the giant's traits and fighting style against him.....no chance in hell, not even a punchers chance, no amount of luck, Apollo and Jesus could get together and form the super god buds and would still be defied by the Rock not because Marciano is that unbeatable but because Joshua ain't got **** for him but a long face and an easy target. The left is the shield the right is the sword....he even looks like a ****in' Spartan. Just picture his ass with a shield, shield bumping and sword clanging.....Joshua don't want none of that savagery.

This right here, this is Sparta. None of that 300 bull**** this is the art:

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Watch and see, boxing and sword fighting are damn near one in the same. Marciano rocks the sword and shield, boxers, classic don't be hit boxers, they're rocking the fencer's rapier. They are by theory equals but if you're going to use the rapier you'd best be a fencer, dig? AJ is not a good fencer, he loses posture. Marciano is an excellent swordsman, his shield is ready to bump and his sword is ready to slay. Best be on point with your posture, best have damn nice feet, best be able to fence with them fists like a Musketeer otherwise son you are ****ed. Riposte or get the **** to sleep, and how exactly do you purpose Joshua ripostes? Then he goes the **** to sleep.

 

I'm liking this post.
Haven't digested it all yet but I like. Lots to get the head around.

 

Well, I did mean for the video to begin at the beginning, but outside of that I stand by the post. I am vehement but I would hear an argument in Joshua's favor provided that argument laid out how the skills interplay.

I am currently in the process of translating Gymnastica but once I'm done I'll do a thread specifically about Spartan sword and shield and another specifically about English fencing with fists. That wasn't just a term I pulled out of my ass, it's something people used to do....sort of a english pre-boxing sport.

You may have some interest in my Myths thread as I do touch on some aspects of the ancient techniques there.

Dambe is a current Nigerian form of boxing based on ancient hellenistic boxing. They are also sword and shield fighters but not good like Marciano. Bit closer to a Wilder style of it, but still the same core theory.

 

Mostly only in basketball, wrestling, body building, and football. And even in those sports it was rare to see guys who were over 6'4 and natural 230+ who had that rare combination of power, speed, explosiveness, coordination, etc. I struggle to think of a single example prior to 80's heavyweights in regards to boxing.

 

Chok, you have joined the Donald Trump club of alternate facts, you're living in an alternate reality.

Wilder is a heavyweight by weight and has a heavyweight belt.

There is no such thing in professional boxing as a Super Heavyweight belt.

 

So would you say there was a coincidence?

 

I was talking about in my scenario. Of course there is no such thing as a Superheavyweight belt........- YET.

If what is heavyweight now becomes the Superheavyweight division Wilder would have the word super next to his title. If!

 

He is way more fluid, rangy, skilled than the likes of Willard and carnera, and Fulton. Fury understands how to keep a shorter fighter at a distance the entire fight...his accuracy is phenomenal..you can't get inside on him. He throws a whole arsenal of punches from all angles, great uppercuts and hooks...his defense is his height and fantastic feet ability to move in and out of range.and his upper body movement is really good for his size...for a shorter fighter it's a near impossible task to be able to land something big on him..

Willard Fulton carnera these guys wouldn't win one round against Fury

 

I'm one of the biggest Marciano fans you will ever meet....

And this post is rubbish. Joshua would destroy Marciano...way too much size athleticism skill and power...not a fair matchup for Marciano who was only 5'10 185lb...marcianos management wouldn't throw him in the ring with an athlete of that size and skill level. It's just not fair. Marciano would try to get inside and get destroyed by Joshua's uppercuts and long hooks, he would get thrown around in clinches, he would take such a beating trying to make it inside...the ref would stop the fight. Marciano wouldn't quit that's for sure..no man p4P in history was stronger than Marciano..but 250lb ripped Joshua is way too much too handle

That's why we have weight divisions...

 

I'm skeptical Holmes would be able to prevail against the skilled giants of later eras. What is there on his resume or on film to suggest he could compete with the Klitschkos or Joshua? He was used to fighting guys his own size and doesn't possess devastating power to make up for lack of size.

 

Holmes against super heavyweights?
Take your pick

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I believe jones and Tiger Williams would be belt holders today.