Where do you rank Jack Dempsey??

Thanks and Fair enough - not sure why anyone responds too Pepping It/Revolver or whatever hes called today. I don't read his posts.

I think Dempsey comes out highish in head2heads but may have problems with boxers (ali/holmes/Johnson) and physical beasts (foreman/tyson)

 

Basically, I rank Louis and Ali as top-6 alltime heavyweights.

I rank Jeffries, Johnson, Dempsey, Tunney, Marciano, Liston, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes, Tyson, Holyfield and Lewis as top-16 alltime heavyweights.

I rank Sullivan, Jackson, Corbett, Fitzsimmons, Langford and Charles as top-26 alltime heavyweights.

These days that's about as specific as I get.

 

I respectfully disagree


i)
No matter how you twist it, Johnson being undefeated for 10 years before and after the Willard fight, he was old. Old and fat. 37 years and 225 pounds, whereas his prime weight was somewhat over 200 pounds.

Would you say that Larry Holmes was not old because he was undefeated for 10 years before he fought Michael Spinks? Johnson didn't fight anyone of note after the Willard fight.

This is Revolver type of spinning facts to support your argument and you know it.

ii)
Small point, but it was not an uppercut that took Johnson out, i remember it being a straight right hand

iii) Johnson was easily outboxing Willard for the first 15, 20 rounds. Out of 8 rounds, he managed to lose 6 to Firpo. He was being outboxed by Firpo, who is one of the worst and sloppiest looking fighters i've ever seen on film.
Film of Willard only confirms this view; his skills are horrible. He does not use his size well (which is easy when you're fighting cruiserweights and lightheavies 90% of the time), just stands there like a heavy bag when he's being hit, does not impress in technique, balance, footwork or speed.
Yes, he takes a good punch, but that alone doesn't account for ****. Chuvalo and Cobb take a great punch too, but that doesn't mean they should be ranked highly.
Outside of a young Morris (who i am not too impressed with) and an old fat Johnson, he barely beat anyone of note. The best fighter he faced up to Johnson was Smith who beat him.

iv)
This has nothing to do with Johnson, but against Dempsey, Willard was 37 and somewhat overweight himself. I think this win is way overrated for Dempsey.

v)
As a champion, Willard was HORRIBLE. He made one title defense against Frank Moran who is not world beater, after one year of inactivity. Then he sits on the title for three years untill he finally makes another defense, against Dempsey, which he loses.

vi)
His style was perfectly suited for boxing the way it was back then, but let's be realistic here; there is no way that he beats Johnson in 15 rounds. And i'm not talking about a prime Johnson now, but a 37 year old fat Johnson.
Head to head under 15 rounds his ability is very, very poor.

vii)
The fact that he needed 26 rounds to break Johnson down doesn't speak that well for his power or ability to get his punches in either. You say he has a great uppercut, well why didn't he break an old Johnson down with it earlier? Johnson is known to clinch, wrestle and throw uppercuts often so there was plenty of oppurtunity for it.


Although i'm not gonna bother going through an entire list, but i doubt i'd rate him in the top50. There have been so many greater fighters with a lot more ability and achievements.

 

Even if I took those 15 out he'd still be only at 32, but I wouldn't take all those 15 out - some are very close calls though.

I knew some would be controversal, partly because Sharkeys best win is against a very old past prime Wills and a controversal decision against Schmelling, but lets look:

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, - Larry Holmes (maybe as prime as the Wills Sharkey beat?) Prime Lennox Lewis

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- Holmes - by itself is HUGE and Cooney and some great LHWs.

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- Unbeaten Pattersons a huge win

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very dominant, impressive record, impressive losing effort against Lennox, missing big names

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hurt Tyson and Lennox giving both problems, very dominant and destructive, beat McCall, Bugner, Tills, Coetzee, Coetzer, Williams

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yes we hate him but beating Holyfield twice, Golotta, Johnson look good on paper and 50-50s with Valuev/Changeev can't be ignored

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Every year a new breed of clowns, recently exposed to a bit of Dempsey/Willard, come along and harp on about 'poo title reign' 'no skill' and a big load of nothin'.

Understand this...

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Dempsey owned.

You wanna talk about competition?

Before Dempsey became champ he starched Fred Fulton who many thought was the real champ as he had Willard running from him.

Fulton was very similar to Wladimir today - top boxer, crunching power, height n' reach, dodgy chin. The difference is in the top competition Fulton had beat before Dempsey ate him.

Billy Miske would have very probably had a reign as champ had Dempsey not edged him out in two close fights prior to the title. Miske was **** hot - quick, slick and tough. One of the best ever HW contenders. He gave Dempsey all kinds of problems because he was that good.

Billy Brennan - now I've seen him in his fights with Dempsey, and Firpo later and he could box. He could box and punch real hard. Very fit and very tough - another top contender Dempsey twice delt with.

Tommy Gibbons - oh no a LH! Ok a LH, but this LH routinely delt with HW's. Gibbons was awesome with his cross-armed defence and loved his slippery left hook off the feint. Check that record! They're owner to an ugly fight where Dempsey used his weight to win the fight, but there is some top inside action and you need skill to beat Gibbons so convincingly - as he said himself; "Don't let anyone tell you that Jack can't box".

Jack Sharkey in his prime! Controversy? Don't care. Dempsey won. That's a beauty of a win.

Dempsey is the shizel and if you think differently you must secretly like golf more than boxing. Yep.

Dempsey brought that burning attitude, that cropped hair, that offensive arsenal, the slick movements and sportsmanship. He mastered the style that Tyson would later use, albiet a flawed version, but you saw how magnetic it is.

Don't even doubt him because William Harrison Dempsey will rise from the grave, line-up all the current HW's, and let go a left hook with such force that it'd make sure everyone of their jaws would melt. Yes, melt!

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Don't look at him straight in the eyes!

 

This is an eminently fair observation.

 

Classic post.

:good