Where do you rank John L Sullivan ATG Hwt champs?

That is a tough question.

At his peak (before the drink disipated him) he was more dominant than Joe Louis but he was dominating a verry weak era. He could probably have beaten any two heavyweights in the same night.

His prime was shortened due to his lifestyle and he failed to meet the best around in the latter part of his reign such as Peter Jackson.

Personaly I dont rank him because there are so many unknown variables. If I was going to rank him among other heavyweight champions of the gloved era it would be hard to argue against a top 10 ranking based on acomplishment.

 

Janitor, can you offer anything regarding Sullivans fight with Domanic McCafferey.... 1887-88???? The fight, as far as Im aware, was contested under the 'Queensberry rules'....gloves, and 3 minute rounds of course.

 

off the info i know i would prob. rank him somewere between 15-25 my top 5 and 10 is easier 10-25 is much harder

 

Number 1, of course. There will never be another John L.

Now pass me my tincture of laudenum.

 

Here is a ontemporary acount.

This acount makes the fight look competitive, but the New York Times acount says that Sullivan was under bond for prizefighting,at the time of the bout and would have breached his bail terms if a knockout took place.

It is arguably like if Mike Tyson wasnt alowed to knock out Michael Spinks and had to get a win on the score cards.

The fight was originaly scheduled for six rounds but a seventh round took place due to an error on the part of the reff.

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Between 20 and 30, head-to-head.

The man who could lick any man in the house had a huge punch, was very aggressive and possessed great stamina, but he was a sucker for a polished boxer.

 

What makes you say this?

 

John L. Sullivan was a brawler. As the last of the bare-knuckle champs, he was more prone to use the rough-and-tumble holding and mauling tactics of the London Prize Ring. He would find boxing skills bewildering and frustrating, as actually happened when he dropped the title to the scientific Corbett. From what I have read, though out of shape, Sullivan hardly laid a glove on Corbett over 20 rounds.

It is quite unfair to compare Sullivan to other gloved champions in that he was a bridge from bare-knuckle competition and, thus, would have no reference point for technicians such as Tunney, Walcott and Charles.

And, considering his fiery temperament, I doubt the Boston Strong Boy would be inclined to improve on finesse. He would always want to meet his opponent in ring center and duke it out.

A fighter who did this would probably get blasted out; but a skilled boxer would prevail rather handily.

 

Sullivan was a great fighter. He was very strong, had one punch KO power, very fast hands, a great chin and exceptional stamina ... however he was never trained as a boxer, ever, and was more of a hinge between bare fists to M of Q ... If he was taken today with his natural skill set and trained from the start of his career he would have been a killer cruiserweight ...

 

Janitor.... your thoughts... Having been contested under Queensberry rules, doesn't that make Sullivans fight with McCafferey, the first H/W contest under those rules, thus giving Sullivan the right as claimant to being the first H/W champ under the Queensberry rules??? Rather than Corbett???? Your thoughts please....

 

While this is a gloved match, it doesn't appear to be under the Queensbury Rules. There is no mention of counts by the referee, and the article mentions that the fight started at 545PM but the 6th round ended at exactly 605PM. The Queensbury Rules specified that there would be rounds of 3 minute duration with 1 minute in-between. This would have put the time at 608PM. The Queensbury Rules also describes the gloves to be 'of fair size', but from the sound of the gloves used in this contest, they were minimal, if that, with only half an inch of hair separating the knuckle from the glove. Here's Corbett, and you can see his gloves are much larger than that -

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Sullivan should rate rather high on the legacy list.

In an accomplishment sense, I feel that Sullivan lacked quality wins over Queensberry opponents, and missed on quite a few key fights that would have shown us how good or average he was. ( Slavin, Jackson, Goddard, Dooley et al )

Head to head is anyone guess, but based on how he struggled at times vs. the best-gloved fighter he meet, I would not say top 25. Maybe top 40.

 

I cant ague your point ..... although, I heard mention over many years, that this particular fight was listed in the 'Police Gazette', as being under the 'Queensberry rules".... Will see what I can find out.... Its been a long time.

 

Have taken a look... via Google... Conflicting reports suggest, firstly, Sullivan, having defeated McCaffery was crowned 'Marquiss of Queensberry H/W champion'... the Queensberry rules being 'similar' to the rules used today....

Another report suggests the bout was fought "under Marguiss of Queensberry rules".. effectively... nothing concrete to make claim... Cheers.