Where do you Rank Mickey Walker in your ATG?

I don't like to see Walker lower than #15 or inside the top 5. Anything in between is fine with me.

For those ranking him lower, let's have a quick look at some of his best stuff.

Beat Maxie Rosenbloom. ATG at 175. A bit like Paul Williams beating Calzaghe.

Drew with Sharkey. Top 30 at HW. A bit like Paul Williams drawing with Chagaev.

Outpointed Uzcudun. A bit like Paul Williams out-pointing Gomez.

Bearcat Wright, Johnny Risko, more 190lb plus contenders that Walker beat.

Leo Lomski, Mike McTigue, cracking 175lb fighters that Walker laid low. Walker was not a lightheavyweight. He was a big welter or a light-middleweight. But he has a good LHW resume and a decent one at HW. That's incredible.

SO, victories over ATG fighters at welter, middle, light-heavy, and very good heavyweights, often giving away nearly 50lbs. He's a head to head nightmare at welter through to super-middle, something in itself. If you've seen the Schmeling fight you know that he probably has one of the biggest hearts in boxing history to go with his other excellent attributes.

The definition of p4p credentials.

No way should he be in the twenties. Absolutley no way, that's nothing less than a mistake.

 

Accomplished more? No, FItz accomplished more. That would be the core argument for ranking Fitz above Walker (With which I have no problem).

Schmeling was a close to elite puncher. Walker kicked off at welterweight. That's sort of like saying that if Paul Williams lost to Wlad he would somehow lose credit for being on the unlucky end of a draw with Chagaev. Doesn't make sense. If Williams pulled of something like that he would be clean p4p #1 currently and all kinds of strange shouts would got up in general.

As things stand, it won't happen because it is not possible. That's how good Walker was. He did things that just are not possible for 99.9% of boxers.

Have you seen Walker-Schmeling? The beating Walker absorbs is perhaps the most insane ever. I don't want to go overboard, but i'd argue that Walker's losing effort against Schmeling is amongs the most incredible things i've seen on film. Unbeleiveable. Knowing he cannot possibly win on the back foot, Walker doesn't just absorb this mad beating but keeps coming forward, holding the correct game-plan in place.

Looking at it the other way - if Walker had somehow found a way to beat Schmeling - who beat Joe Louis - He would have a case for p4p #1 IMO.

I don't think Greb was past his prime, but I do understand he was suffering a bit with weight. Greb was a better fighter than Walker, that's unquestionable, and should be refelected in any rankings.

But Greb was better than almost everybody.

Lougran is an ATG nearly 30lbs north of Walker's weight turning pro. He also beat Greb, all time top 4, no question, and gave Tunney a horrific time whilst green as grass at Tunney's best weight. Again, if Walker finds a way to beat Loughran, that's an astonishing result.

I don't think of Walker as having beaten Flowers, by the way, picking through the carcass of that fight isn't nice.

 

I'll use some of the easier ones, and i'll use my own criteria, which is a pretty even mix between head to head, accomplishment, p4p achievment, skillsets and physical equipment and no room here for "Greatness" in the wider social sense of the word.

1 - Marvin Hagler. I'm not even 100% convinced tha Hagler would beat Walker, though I would make him favourite to take a points decision. Regardless, Hagler has nothing like the wins against ATG fighters that Walker does, and nothing like the p4p achievment. In terms of skillset Hagler nudges ahead, in terms of physical equipment too, but there really isn't a lot between these men in these areas. Hagler's three best wins include a lightweight - Walker's three best results are all heavyweights. If it's a pound for pound list then Walker's giving away massive amounts of weight against quality men is surely a deciding factor.

At Middle, Hagler should always be above Walker. In fact Walker has no weight at which he is locked into a top 5. Walker makes the p4p top 10 list in an overall sense, not for his work at any one weight.

2 - Jack Johnson. Jack has a lot of really good wins, some of which are perhaps underated based upon Boxrec stats now. He was also a good champion at his weight and very skilled. But he was often the bigger man in his fights and his title run is not glowing.

Compare this with Walker, who matched the very best available - not even just in a pound for pound sense, but in a literal sense, chasing the best and biggest fighters in the world and often beating them.

The horrible truth for Johnson is that his run as world champion does not compare well with Walker's run as a contender. Think about that.


3 - Carlos Monzon. Near identical argument to the Hagler on actually.

You get the idea, I'm sure.

Anyway, i'm satisfied that there is no set of criteria on an ATG p4p list that allows any of these three to be above Walker. Of the guys you've listed for whom I think a case can be made -

Benny Leonard
Ray Leonard
Barney Ross
Bob Fitzsimmons

But for me, Walker's argument is the better.

 

Well the class is "open", so it is possible for HW's to match and beat much bigger men, but you're right, it is tough for HW to do extraordinary things. But I look at it the other way - better to penalise HW's than penalise the smaller men that move up. Walker should be credited for giving away all that size to the top fighters of his day.

I can almost see a case for Hagler in the 20, but not quite. I have him between 30 and 38.

As for Walker, he beat ATG Britton in '22 and ATG Rosenbloom way up at LHW in '34. Hard to imagine him slipping of the list in the 11 years in between. Think about it ELEVEN years on the p4p list, much of it spent beating bigger men, ducking nobody.

 

What you are failing to understand, or discounting, is that beating ATG's at welter is a less impressive achievment than beating HW's. That is, most of the HW's Walker would have beaten towards the end of his 11 years at the top of p4p lists would have beaten all the guys he struggled with whilst younger.

So you're list stack up may be a little misleading.

Not least Wilde fought nobody on a top 100. If he had perhaps he would have lost. We'll never know.

Walker fought the very best available, going past the best in his own divisions to match the best in the biggest division.

"Not in the 20" basically makes a mockery of the term "pound for pound".