Where do you rank Muhammad Ali’s 60s reign compared to other heavyweight champions?

There are quite a few boxing historians who have said that if Ali hadn't come back in 1970...we wouldn't be talking about him because his first title reign...(1964-1967)...was nothing special...

 

Then they seem to lack some knowledge, I'd say. But, sure, please say who these experts are.

No other fighter, except Ali himself ten years later, has ever cleaned out nine of the other ten in The Ring's yearly top 10 (plus champion) when his reign began. I think that actually goes for all divisions.

So if that was a nothing special reign, I'd like to see the special ones.

 

In his first reign as world champion,Muhammad was n't only unbeaten but looked nigh on unbeatable!
If he had n't have been forced out for three and a half years there is little doubt in my mind that he could've been champion for a long time.

 

Ali's first reign was impressive due to how easily he won in all 9 title defenses.

The Liston 2 fight was obviously very suspect and controversial, but all the following fights weren't.

So that's 8 fights in a row for the world HW championship where he was absolutely dominating, losing no more than 8 rounds (probably less) in those fights (1 round per fight max).

And it could have gone the same exact way for the next few fights (most likely until the Frazier fight) had Ali not been banned from boxing.

I agree his opposition wasn't great during that run but they were the best available. It is not Ali's fault that Foreman, Norton, Frazier, Lyle came in 70s.

Ali was never in trouble in any of his title defenses. And he didn't lose the title in a fight.

 

The notion that Lyle & co were so great has mostly to do with them being bigger and more muscled I'd say. Lyle was KO'd by an half assing, years past his best Ali and well beaten by Quarry, who in turn not only was beaten by post exile Ali twice (and quite easily both times) but also by Ellis, Chuvalo and, according to most, ageing Patterson. Another 70's contender, Bugner, had to settle for a very disputed decision against an ancient version of Cooper.

So this notion that the 60's contenders weren't up to mustard has probably more to do with their size than actual quality. And if '64 Liston would beat every single one of the 70's bunch, including Frazier and Foreman, I wouldn't be very surprised.

 

They'd have to say he was exceptional, undefeated, growing bigger getting better and no clue how great he might have been ... pretty much right same as were saying now as even though he did come back and prove courage, strength and chin it was a different fighter ..

 

It's great beat two great Heavyweights in Patterson, Liston.

8 stoppages in 10 world title fights.

Beat 7 opponents ranked in the top 10.

Won comprehensively in pretty much every title fight.

It's a top 3 Heavyweight reign just rating Ali's 60's reign without 70s.

 

I'd rather pick both Foreman 74 and Frazier 71 over Liston, but I see your point

I also think that Ali from Quarry rematch was the best version of post-exile Ali. He looked absolutely great that night

 

I can see why, both were great. '64 Liston was still a more skillfull operator than Foreman, I'd say, but Foreman's youth an even greater power and strength might win him the day. Even '71 Frazier is at a stylistic disadvantage and would have a horrid time early on, I think, but might survive and drag Listin into deep waters.

But I can also see a Liston just seven months removed from his great performance against Floyd in the rematch beating both. We'll never know of course, but it doesn't seem fanciful to me.

One of the best for sure. He looked fantastic that night.

 

Dominant. Particularly remarkable when you take into account that when the WBA tried to strip him of the title after the second Liston fight and then barred him from fighting in states under the WBA's jurisdiction after his Patterson defense, he didn't let those facts bother him one little bit. Instead, he took to the road and defended the title once in Canada, twice in Great Britain, once in Germany. And then when Texas decided to ignore the WBC's edict, he returned to the USA, defeated Cleveland Williams and in effect made the WBA eat crow by easily defeating its cheese champion Ernie Terrell. Unlike any other champion, Ali not only had to fight his way to the top in the ring, he had to fight against the politics of the game and all this was even before he was forced to go up against the US government for not submitting to the military draft.