Where do you rank sonny liston?

Better in what, hockey or NFL?
They were not even good contenders compared to 70s/90s contenders.

They couln't even dream of being as great as Marciano because they lost all big fights they had.

 

False, he never said that and when Liston got cocky when Marciano tried to interview him, Rocky invited him to sparing match but Liston and his handlers declined the offer.

 

All lies.
He lost against bum Marahall who was not even a journeyman caliber and was construction worker.
No great fighters lost early fights against bums including Marciano, Ali, Frazier, Holmes, Tyson, Foreman etc.

Sonny was old?
At that age Walcott was still great and Lewis/Klitchko were still champs.

Also it's lie that Martin retired because Liston , Leotis had few eyes surgery prior Liston fights and it was few fights before Liston fight where he had retina problems and later went to surgery.

 

Now...I know this will ** off the Liston people....I remember a conversation with Lou Duva.. (Listen to the groans).

He mentioned that Marciano was doing some TV and radio leading up to the Ali-Liston fight in Miami in Feb.1964.

Rock went to the gym where Liston was training to do an interview. Liston kept saying to Marciano, "You wouldn't last 2 rounds with me!!" People who were there said that Marciano remained calm...but after Liston kept talking, Marciano said,, "Get me some gloves....shoes...and some trunks...and let's see what happens!!" Duva said that Liston's people and Sonny left the gym after the exchange....

 

Well I'll take what Lou who was a legened said than what you think because you don't like this.

Btw Tyson was scared of 50 years old Foreman so that story about someone not being scared is not true.

I'm not saying anyone was scsred but Liston had many things to lose if something goes wrong for him and that wasn't anyone who would be intimidated by him.

 

Well by all means you're welcome to provide back-up that Leotis Martin had these allegedly serious eye problems before he fought Liston.
However,having been a boxing fan for many,many years I have never heard of Martin
having any pre-existing eye problems before his fight with Liston.Never.So go ahead and surprise me.
Henry Armstrong,a serious candidate for being the greatest boxer of all time,lost four of his first six fights.Against guys who you would no doubt call '' bums ''.Personally I refuse to call any man brave enough to step into the ring a '' bum''.But that's a subject for another day.
Carlos Monzon,who many good/great judges regard as one of the 3 greatest middleweights in history,lost his ninth fight.No doubt against a man who you would dismiss as a '' bum ''.

 

Seems like you're getting confused again.We're discussing boxing.
Folley,Williams and Machen would be far better equipped to compete with the 70s/90s guys than Marciano.
No doubt if they we're lucky enough to contend with Marciano's diet of elderly light-heavyweights and a
hopelessly past-it Joe Louis they would very probably remain unbeaten.
I'm not going out of my way to bash the Rock.He was a brave and formidable fighter but his competition
was so very weak.That's not Marciano's fault but it is what it is.
He would have been slaughtered by Liston.

 

The prime Liston of the late 50's thru about 1960 was a devastating fighter ... Manny Steward said he may have been the best ever and that's quite an endorsement ... I've always felt he was at least 35 for the first Ali fight and highly active against a terrible stylistic match up .. while not tall at 6' 1" we all know he was monster strong, had an amazing chin, an absurd reach and power with skills ...

 

When did you talk to Lou Duva?

 

Only read the bolded before the next line, and thought you'd never heard of Martin, I was like "this dude dksab"

 

H2H #5/6 for me. Accomplishments he's at #11/12.

He can definitely be rated higher. Wish he did more as champion but he almost wiped out the division before he could touch Patterson.

 

"Journeyman" is arbitrary but Marshall was on a 12 fight winning streak and knocked out Satterfield and almost won their rematch. Won the Michigan LHW title. He was not a "bum" at least not when he encountered Liston. Did a HW top 20 awhile back and put Marshall 20th cause Liston and Satterfield are two really good wins.

Marshall beat Liston in a 8 round split decision. The shorter the fight the better the chances of an upset.

Liston would have won the Martin fight if not for a fluky 1 punch KO. Liston was still good when he died KO'ing Wepner in his final fight the heaviest opponent of his career. Walcott was sub .500 after getting the Louis title shot at 33 he got 5 title shots coming off of losses. Walcott got a third title shot at Charles Liston would never get against Ali.

Lennox and Wlad were the best HW at that age. Liston wasn't. Being number 1 isn't about a fighter and how washed they are its about who else is present in the division.