Where do you rank sonny liston?

Top 20.

 

reading the thread, I have the impression that Sonny Liston is terribly underestimated it's sad... one of the greatest fighters in history, it's crazy how some people evaluate boxers superficially. Once again, I come to the conclusion that good PR often means more than real sporting achievements and many assessments are made on the basis of data from Wikipedia

 

Yeah, the legend of mentaly ill people I know.

But he was 13 yewrs older too.

 

Peltz believes Martin suffered the career-ending eye injury not against Liston, but in a bout Peltz promoted at the Blue Horizon against Wendell Newton two months before the Liston fight.

“I’ve always believed that to be the case,” Peltz said. “It was supposed to be an easy fight for Leotis but it wasn’t, and his eye blew up. He might have been behind on the cards when he stopped Newton.”

Collins was at ringside and recalls the bout as being especially dramatic because there was so much at stake for Martin.


“There was a lot of tension in the air because he had to beat Newton to get Liston,” Collins said.

I'm talling about Heavyweights here not lower weight classes and that includes Lennox, Holyfield, Tyson, Lewis, Foreman, Marciano etc.
Not single one lost against a LHW bum who was lighter 30 lbs than them.

 

Anyone with okay chin and good punch could KO Satterfield who was knocked out by MW Jake LaMotta, even featherweights because Satterfiels had no chin.

Marshall was top 30 LHWs and journeyman at best who worked as construction, in boxing terms he was bum.

Marshall lost half of his all fights which also means he was a bum and just journeyman caliber at best.

Woulda, shoulda doesn't count in boxing, if my father was a Brad Pitt maybe I'll be famous but since he'a not I am not too.
It counts what really happened.

Now you are contradicting yourself, you said Liston was old washed but now said that he did great against Wepner.
Again that what if, but that doesn't count, that what changes history.

 

I know this story bothers you Swag, but don't worry, the Liston crew is here to defend you.

 

They wont, there's a reason someone was a champion and someone wasn't, they lacked something called strenght, chin, training, stamina, endurance, heart, willpower...that's why never became champions and they won't do better in any era than Marciano.

Even with past prime Joe Louis, Walcott, Moore, Charles, LaStarza....they would have losses on their records simply because they're just contenders and they would be in any era.

Even past prime Louis would find Williams slugger no defense glass jaw and would deck him few times and it's over.
Zora Folley and Machen?
They would get beaten to the pulp by Walcott, Charles and Moore simply because they are not in the same league, that's what separates champions from contenders and vice versa.

Liston couldn't KO Scrap Iron Johnson and Whitehurst and only thing they had was the chin unlike Marciano who not only had chin but power of a bull and stamina and conditioning of olympic wrestler.

 

It doesn’t bother me one iota, because it’s likely bull. When did you talk to Lou Diva though? He lived in the states, and you supposedly live in Serbia, which he’s never visited to my knowledge.

 

It's not since Lou was not known for making thigs, he was straight to the point man who does not lie or make things.

I just quoted someone who talked with him, are you that stupid or you are changing the topic, because you don't like what Duva said.

 

While I agree with your last two points, I’m not sure you saying he’s underestimated tracks..
The general consensus of the thread is that he belongs in the top 20, with about half of the voters saying top 10…

Being among the top 20 of all time in a weight division - thats a big deal, and once you’re in that territory, just about any of those guys could beat any of the other 19 on any given day, or at least many of them..

OPs fanboyism and serious over-estimation (and adoration) of Liston also doesn’t help, honestly.

 

the opinions of fanboys should not matter, on the other hand, the enthusiastic opinions about Liston from people such as Dundee, Steward, Foreman, Futch and many others mean that this group of fanboys can be quite elite...

 

So how comes Martin's detached retina was discovered after the Liston fight rather than the previous fight ?
A damaged eye certainly does not confirm a detached retina.
You stated that no great fighters ever lost to,what you call '' bums '', meaning you won't find great
fighters with early career defeats.When I cited the careers of two all-times greats, Henry Armstong
and Carlos Monzon, you have now stated you are only talking about heavyweights ! What a pathetic,
transparent attempt to deny the truth from you.Absolutely,truly pathetic.
Ok,if you only want to talk about heavyweights the great Jack Dempsey drew two fights and lost
one fight in his first nine professional fights.

 

Men who achieve any degree of success in boxing will not be lacking in strength,chin,endurance,heart,willpower.
Such men deserve the utmost respect and should never be called '' bums ''
I have absolutely no doubt that the great Joe Louis,even past prime,would defeat a fighter even as formidable as Cleveland Williams.
Louis was the greatest puncher in heavyweight history.However there is a very real chance
that Marciano,with all his flaws,would lose to Williams.
Zora Folley and Eddie Machen would be firm favourites to beat the shopworn,past prime versions of Charles,Walcott and Moore that fought Marciano.
You pour scorn on Sonny Liston because he failed to knock out Scrap Iron Johnson,instead the ref stopped the fight in the 7th round to save Johnson from further punishment.
This is exactly the same result as Johnson's fight with George Foreman.
Scrap Iron Johnson took both the great Joe Frazier and the near-great Jerry Quarry the full distance losing only on points to both these superb warriors.
Wasn't such a bad result for Sonny Liston was it ?

 

True, so many fanboys here trying to argue anyone who said something that hurts their fighters legacy.

 

Yes it does, it confirms that Martin had surgery and eye problems way before Liston fight so it wasn't the Liston that retired him as you his diehard fans want to present.

Retina was damaged before the fught and Martin went to surgery, but it didn't help him at all.

I said that only for HWs with amateur record, old timers didn't have amateur records pre 1940s and it was rare even if they did, they went straight to pro.
And even then it was rare for someone to lose against a bum like Marshall.

Marciano destroyed Louis and would destroy Williams too.
No slugger wild puncher with no chin and defense is going to beat Marciano, especially not the one that was KOed cold by weak chin LHW Bob Satterfield.

Williams was beaten to the pulp by Mac Foster and Satterfield, one okay contender and one LHW with bad chin and they are not even close to league of Marciano opponents.

They wont simply because they were lesser fights same way young Mercer couldn't beat old Holmes, he was not in the same league.

Liston also failed to stop Wepner while Quarry and Bugner KOed him in 3 rounds while Liston couldn't KO him but stopped him.
Also Johnson had nothing but chin, and still went 7 rounds with Liston because he had no skills or stamina do proceed.