Where do you rank Usyk all time modern HWs?

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by Komaster, Oct 2, 2021.


  1. Oddone

    Oddone Bermane Stiverne's life coach. Full Member

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    Your opinion is that AJ is a better win than Holyfield? My opinion is that it is not.

    H2H is nothing to take into consideration as you say since it's all subjective. At Heavyweight Usyk has won three fights. Three.

    You are getting caught up in moment with Usyks Master class over Joshua, who was never half the warrior Holyfield was. Joshua who wasn't even half the fighter he was before the loss to Ruiz.

    Moorer is only one of four boxers over the last century that has ever won a version of a world title at both light heavyweight and heavyweight along with Roy Jones Jr., Michael Spinks, and James Toney. His move to Heavyweight is more impressive than Usyks as it was a weight class lower than Usyks.

    Your post is simply your opinion on accolades, nothing more. When his career is finished he will be a heavyweight ATG but for now the magic number is three heavyweight fights. Hard to grant him ATG over other heavyweights with three fights and Joshua being so timid after Ruiz ate his soul.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2021
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  2. shrekvsmiketyson

    shrekvsmiketyson New Member Full Member

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    i have him number 1, he beat aj, would probably beat wilder and whye. fury is the only one who i see dethroning him
     
  3. Komaster

    Komaster Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Is a shutout vs AJ, staggering him twice and almost stopping him in the UK better than an MD vs Holyfield whilst being dropped? Possibly yes. Would Usyk beat Moorer? Yes 9 times/10. Did Moorer do much more besides an SD vs Schulz? Jirov? If I throw this all together I'd have Usyk above Moorer @ HW. Close though.

    Not caught up in the moment. Just curious as to what I and others feel about a gifted boxer's place in all time modern rankings after such a short HW career, who has a highly favourable H2H element going for him.
     
  4. Komaster

    Komaster Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    IMO he's around 14, 15
     
  5. Oddone

    Oddone Bermane Stiverne's life coach. Full Member

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    Completely irrelevant as it cannot be proved and never happened. Does that actually go into your thought process for ranking people as an ATG? Fantasy fights that never happened while evaluating someone?

    If so, Jesus.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2021
  6. Oddone

    Oddone Bermane Stiverne's life coach. Full Member

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    As one of only four men to go from Light Heavyweight to Heavyweight in the last century and become a champion in both I'd begrudgingly argue for Moorer as an ATG.

    Just my opinion but it seems like that feat is enough to clinch it.
     
  7. Komaster

    Komaster Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    So your nitpicking now? If it's subjective, which it is, then something like that can sway a place or two when ranking. We all subconsciously do it.

    While we're at it: why just state people's wins, and not take into account manner of the win.
     
  8. Oddone

    Oddone Bermane Stiverne's life coach. Full Member

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    No.. We don't.

    I wait until a fighters career is over before talking ATG status. I don't take things that never happened into consideration.

    You do you though.
     
  9. Komaster

    Komaster Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    So why you in this thread. Everyone seems to be able to get their head around it. ATG status? No that's not the premise. Where do you rank him currently for modern HWs. People see the words all-time and they ruffle up. All time intimates that it's not H2H. But if two boxers are pretty close you might take that into consideration, one to pip the other. A talent like Usyk is clearly above Moorer if you're ranking modern HW's right now imo - the 9/10 thing was emphasizing that. Maybe that line was unnecessary on consideration, because it throws intransigent guys like you off. Despite that you're focusing on one sentence and being petty and nitpicking to undermine the greater argument.

    Yet you still didn't explain why you subscribe to false equivalences, because a name on a resume is a name and simply a win. Not subjectively looking at it - manner of victory for example.

    Even then I think the holyfield MD win is quite close to AJ UD, rocking him badly throughout.


    Anyway I think we're at loggerheads on this one, and it's pretty trivial anyway so I'm done debating it. Have a good one.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2021
  10. Brighton bomber

    Brighton bomber Loyal Member Full Member

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    Shut out? It wasn't a shut out even the most optimistic scoring couldn't see that fight as a shut out, Joshua won at least 3 rounds on most people's cards and at worst 2 rounds. So no not a shut out, an impressive and dominant win yes but not a shut out.

    Holyfield ranks higher than AJ and probably always will, even though it was an MD, the Moorer win over Holyfield probably wasn't as impressive as dominant wins like Usyk's usually are seen as more impressive that I agree with. But in terms of legacy? A win over Holyfield still counts for more than a win over AJ for me, but I can see your point of view here, it's not clear cut because of the manner of the wins vs the quality of the opponent, so it's a subjective argument.

    I'd definitely favour Usyk over Moorer, Moorer was very good but very inconsistent and very good isn't enough to beat Usyk.

    But I still stand by my point of view. 3 fights at heavyweight simply isn't enough for an ATG legacy especially when there's still a certain Tyson Fury to fight. I wouldn't of ranked Fury as an ATG if after he beat Wlad he had retired. One good win even over a unified champion and a win over Chisora is not the making of an ATG legacy. Was Leon Spinks and ATG after he beat Ali, was Buster Douglas an ATG after beating Tyson, one good or even great win isn't enough for me to elevate someone into the ranks of ATG at heavyweight.
     
  11. gollumsluvslave

    gollumsluvslave Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Given that Usyk has only had 3 fights at Heavy, it's hard to match his resume up to other greats.

    So right now he wouldn't even be in my top 50 Heavyweights - his resume is just too thin in that division - it's a bit like Roy Jones @168 - he only had like 3/4 fights in that division. H2H Roy is agruably the #1 168 of all time, but on resume he's not even top 10 for me.

    So I guess it depends on what metric we are using.

    Personally, if he beats AJ in the rematch then gets undisputed by beating Fury, then even wikth 5 fights he has to be up there on achievement alone; there would be no one else to beat really, so I could see that as an exceptional case.

    H2H Usyk is a nightmare match up for any heavyweight in history, where the opponent would have to be 100% focussed and on point. I could see a place for Usyk Top 20 H2H, maybe even top 10, but I'd have to really think about it.
     
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