Where do you rate Andre Ward all time p4p? And at 168?

Just saw this post. I wasn't aware of this

 

Do you realize that amateurs weigh in on the day of the fight and super middle weight is non existent?

Edit.. just saw your above post

 

I guess we have a different concept of life and death. Turn off the bias commentary towards Calzaghe and its easy to see the fight was close, but if you don't think Calzaghe proved he was the better fighter and a level above his opponent, then I'm wasting my energy. Because to me Calzaghe made Kessler fight his fight and overwhelmed him with sheer volume, which had Kessler taking rounds off, because he couldn't cope with the intensity that Calzaghe brought. Calzaghe was never going to 'systematically deconstruct' Kessler, because that's not how he fought

Woodhall and Reid, apart from maybe Catly, where the best super middleweights in Britain at the time. Minus Eubank these were his best two wins at this stage of his career.

 

Calzage was an excellent 168, His fight against Kessler was beautiful, the Lacy destruction was a masterpiece, & remember when he moved up to fight Hopkins & Jones in a higher division he was no kid. I love the Left hand that he dropped Eubanks with, too bad he trouble with his hands but JC was one of a kind, Ward also had good wins over Froch,Kessler but his better fights may be at 175

Calzage
Ward

Collins

 

All time P4P?
Its debatable IMO that he is even top 5 at SMW
SMW alone and Calzaghe, Eubank, Ottke and Collins have greater resumes in that division
Still we are looking at his career as a whole but there are many many fighters that I would rate higher though I am not qualified to give an opinion on these subjects. I will let the experts do that

 

Who did Ward beat to be rated higher. His best SMW wins are fighting a faded Calzaghes leftovers and fighters who have lost to fighters Calzaghe beat

 

Reid and Woodhall were quality wins. the problem was the division wasnt watched by many Americans because there wasnt an American SMW around who was winning, so they instantly dismiss and arent aware that the division was tougher then, that it ended up when Ward and Froch were in it later. Consider prime Sheika had to beat G Johnson for a shot at Calzaghe. The same G Johnson who when faded and boiled down took Froch to a Mdec.
The same G Johnson who when faded and boiled down and coming off a loss was arguably Butes big win, when S Ottke had beaten a prime G Johnson some 12 years previously.
You are right in that Starie was a good win and as you note Starie clearly beat Woods etc

 

K , maybe life n death was a stretch , but it was a competitive fight Joe clearly won. He has an ATG resume no doubt , but how many other elite fighters would lose to any of the guys he fought?
Woodhall was coming off a loss to Marcos Bwyer and Ried was beaten in more convincing fashion by Silvio Branco one fight later.
Good wins at the time , but how do they factor into the discussion from an all time great perspective. Carl Froch has a win over Kessler , plus higher level wins against Groves , Bute , Taylor , Abraham, Johnson and Dirrell.
Glen Johnson went to Italy to fight for the title against Branco and was robbed.

 

if I'm including Bika for joe, then you need to add him too, or your argument is self fail.

However I amnot sure I mentioned bika in name, and I cant be bothered to scroll back n check so its not your fault you didnt know I meant him, I am not blaming you for that.

 

the reason the richie bout get overlooked is because woodhalls back injury that had him retiring is honestly admitted. He knew he shouldnt have been in the ring - joe was just giving him a retirement cheque in what should have been a proper title fight.
To call a victory over a cripple as a best win is really shytting on calzaghe, but feel free to do so.

The reid bout was fully valid as one of joes best opponents though, with many calling it a draw and some a win for reid. It exposed Joe's real level, especially when he ran from any rematch.

 

Good wins at the time is what they were, I'm not trying to sell them as anything more. Although as Herol pointed out, the win over Woodhall might be rightfully overshadowed. I know Richie was nursing an injury for the Holmes fight as well, he's very modest and hasn't downplayed Joe's victory over him. I don't have first hand evidence, but I'm sure he admitted even without the injury he wouldn't have beaten Joe, but they were good friends and like I said, Richie is very modest and represents himself very well. It's cool that you eased your position on the Kessler fight, that's what this forums all about, using facts and educated opinions to adjust our arguments. I'll happily admit that Ward whooped Kessler in much more convincing fashion, there's no denying that.

 

I'd go, on 2nd thoughts -

Jones kinda by default, even though he was the least accomplished
Ward
Toney
Froch
Nunn
Calzaghe
Collins
Kessler
Liles
Benn
Eubank

hard to place sven. got beat several times yet handed wins.

 

My top ten Best at 168: (Best Fighters at that weight, not necessarily best resumes):

Jones
Toney
Calzaghe
Ward/Eubank
Benn
Collins
Nunn
Froch
Kessler
Liles/Ottke

Resumes at a particular weight only count for so much when fighters these days seem to switch divisions so often. Prime Roy Jones and Prime James Toney would handily beat Andre Ward. If prime Jones took the fight seriously he would quite possibly stop Ward. I think he would definitely stop Kovalev.

 

Great fighter, did almost all of his good work at 168 during the Super 6. 175? Two bullshlt wins over Kovalev and a win over Barrera. No matter how the fights vs. Kovalev turned out Ward was a very tough opponent for Sergey... and Sergey is a future Hall of Famer as well.