Where do you rate Haye in the list of Wlad's best wins

Haye could be very dangerous, he proved that against Chisora, who hasn't been beaten in that fashion since, and still remains a solid contender. Say what you will about Haye and his career but he had that speed and power, Wlad did very well to pretty much completely neutralist him. It was an impressive win.

 

Was a big win for vlad but the fight was total crap ! One of the worst fights I have ever witnessed . I actually paid money for that grrrrrrr

 

David Tua blasted Ruiz out years ago. Seriously, are you unaware of that fact or are you just trying to ignore it?

The only decent opponent in that bunch at the time Haye fought him was Chisora. Barrett was an old, beaten down journeyman who hadn't put in a decent performance in years. Ruiz was barely any better. Neither man was a contender in any meaningful sense of the word.

Valuev was absolutely a cherry pick. Evander outclassed him for twelve rounds the fight before and was robbed of the decision. When an ancient Evander does that to an opponent you know they're there for the taking.

No one's rewriting anything about Haye's career. Most people are merely restating what we've thought since the beginning, only now that the glamour is starting to wear off the words are starting to hit home a bit more for his fanboys.

Personally I'm not saying Haye wasn't a good fighter. He had great power and speed and a tricky style for a lot of guys to overcome. And he notched up a couple of good wins in his career (Mormeck, Chisora). But he didn't do anything out of the ordinary and doesn't deserve to be lauded for achievements that other fighters have equalled or bettered in their careers with far less fanfare.

He was a smart businessman who chose his battles wisely and was lucky/opportunistic/marketable enough to win a paper trinket off an immobile mammoth that had already lost his belt to an even smaller man two years before, and then proceed to milk it for all it was worth.

I respect his hustle, but that's about all that I'll truly consider outstanding about him.

 

Don't think anyones giving haye preferal treatment. He was a cruiserweight. Pretty much a great one in every sense of the word. He battered every opponent he ever went in with including Thompson. Momeck was a great fighter. Mcaranelli also a good fighter. Both guys we,re dealt with and took a beating in 7 rounds and 3 rounds respectively. The guy then moves to heavyweight which was never his weight class. Very difficult thing to do as history has proven over and over again. You don't get success up there if your not a good fighter moving up as a cruiserweight its pretty much as simple as that. Again, Ruiz, Barrett, Harrison. All on the slide...but haye still dealt with each of them in an impressive manner. Ruiz and Barrett put down four or five times. Stopped after taking a beating. Harrison dealt with in three. Chisora...dealt with in five. Valuev a great win. Personally they made a mess of the tactics in that fight. But bearing in mind valuev outweighed him by a hundred pounds on the night. Its stupid to degrade the win. Holyfield just had better tactics/style for it than haye did.

We can criticize his career...maybe his choice of opponents...and that he didn't,t achieve all that he could have. But to claim haye was anything but a great fighters a bit silly. Its allright saying this ones a journeyman or Harrison was useless. But when the guy goes in and lights them up and beats them impressively...you can't really criticize them for it. From momeck to mcarranelli to fragomeli to chisora to mock in his seventh fight. To Ruiz, Barrett, Harrison. Natural heavyweights. All we,re beat impressively. You can't really say something like he beat chisora...but chisora wasn't all that so he gets no credit for it. You really have to look at the performance and see how he beat them...to give a fair assessment. Could he have done more...definitely. What he done was impressive tho...for anyone but guys that have an agenda because they don't like the guy or whatever the agenda is about.

What other cruiserweight got more success than haye moving up to heavyweight? I,ll go holyfield.
Who else?

 

why should people get credit for beating up nobodies?

loads of people do that?

 

Fair shout. I think Jirov (like Cole) at cruiser tends to get downgraded because of his undistinguished run at heavyweight, which is the opposite of Haye in that he gets credit for being dominant at cruiser due to winning a title at the weight class above.

When ranking within weight classes it's important to focus on their achievements in that division. Haye and Jirov have similar resumes at cruiserweight; while Jirov did lose his title in the ring it was in a classic against a great fighter on one of the best runs of his career. H2H I'd pick Haye to do a job on Jirov at either weight, but if you are going by their achievements in the lower weight class there isn't a great deal between them.

 

Toney has a better resume at heavyweight. Norris possibly a better resume (or at least a deeper one) if you take into account his pre-cruiser run as well. You can argue that Adamek beat better opposition at heavyweight, and at a stretch Gomez' run is close to Haye's. Huck came close to beating Povetkin, which is surely more impressive than squeaking a win against Valuev. I'd be surprised if any (or even all) of Usyk, Gassiev and Breidis don't achieve as much as Haye at heavyweight.

Haye has had a nice career with some good wins, but has to be seen as something of an underachiever. The big issue I and others have is the suggestion that Haye clearly proved himself the "second greatest cruiserweight of all time", which isn't backed up by what he achieved in the ring.

 

Ain't that the truth.

Been saying the same things for years now . The fanboys have only just realized the show's all over so they're forced to address the facts and try to salvage as much as they can .
The overeating continues.

 

OverRATING even !

 

Agree that he could have achieved more. But tbf the guy struggled with injury throughout his career. Stopped us seeing the very best of him. But what we did see was impressive however you look at it. Anyone he went in with he battered into submission without taking much punishment barring valuev, klitchko, Thompson. He battered Thompson before getting done by inexperience. It was too soon for his tenth fight where barring mock he,d only really fought novices. Was still impressive how he put it on Thompson. He more tired himself out battering Thompson than anything else.

Valuev and klitchko he fought to a gameplan...hit and not get hit. Personally thought it was the wrong tactics...booth and haye tried to be too smart for their own good. But people have never taking into account with haye especially...how difficult it is to move up to heavy. The three guys you mentioned...usyk, breidas, gassiev. As good as they are...will struggle up their against the best. I m hoping they do move up because talks of beating say Joshua is pie in the sky. Theyll have competitive fights against whyte etc. That extra natural weight makes a big difference. Out of the guys you,ve said who had more success at heavyweight...its pretty debatable. Maybe spent longer there etc or a single better win. But I know who my money would be on head to head. Who the better heavyweight was out of them.

He didn't achieve what he could have. Sold out to jump up to heavyweight for the money. But what he did do was impressive. Easy to say could have done more...but injuries stop that progress. He still did beat the cruiserweight champion away from home by seven rounds. Battered mcarranelli. Battered pretty much everyone else barring valuev and klirchko. Bearing in mind the massive size differences its hard to criticize too much. Weight/height/reach plays a big part of boxing. Its hard enough going up a weight....the cruiser to heavys the hardest to go up.

 

Haye benefitted from the rise in the cruiser limit to 200lbs in 2004. Cruiserweight at 190lbs was a strange mix of smaller fighters who wouldn't/couldn't cut weight and small heavies trying to squeeze down to an unnatural weight. The rise to 200 allowed fighters like Haye to fill out their frame without killing themselves to make weight, and the division gradually evolved into a place that small heavies could make comfortably, and the level of competition improved markedly.

This was at the expense of the likes of Braithwaite and Maccarinelli, who were more big light-heavies than small heavyweights. Braithwaite weighed 188 for the unification against Mormeck, and both him and Enzo were well inside the 200 limit when they fought in 2007.

I don't think fighters moving from cruiserweight in the current era deserve any more credit than any other smallish heavyweights weighting 210-215 like Chris Byrd for example. Once they cross that line they are heavyweights and don't need an asterisk next to whatever they do at the higher weight.

 

Breidis holds a knockout win over the current WBA champ. Usyk handled huge heavyweights pretty comfortably in the amateurs. Gassiev is the youngest and probably has the largest frame, so it would be a surprise if he doesn't fill out as a 230lbs heavyweight within a few years.

Whether or not they can beat Joshua is a different matter and remains to be seen, but they could probably all mix it with most of the top 10 and be competitive.

 

Thin resume, zero defences, stylistic flaws exposed against mediocre fighters. There were plenty of ways Haye wasn't great.

Eh? He lost to Thompson. Why bring that up?

Mormeck was a decent fighter. He wasn't great by any stretch of the imagination. And he'd already been KOed by Bell a couple fights before and was nearing his use by date by the time Haye got to him.

Enzo was clearly not cut out for the top level. Haye was merely the first to expose him.

Haye was a huge cruiserweight. Likely around 210-215lbs on fight night. That's comparable to a number of heavyweights of the past who had no problems with their size, as well as a current "SHW" of today in Wilder. So no, history has not proven that men of that size necessarily struggle at the weight.

Yes, Haye was a good fighter. But it's not a rare thing for cruisers to compete successfully at heavyweight, especially if they're essentially small heavies themselves. Adamek had success at HW as well, and he started his career as a LHW.

Haye did what he should have done against Ruiz and Barrett. No complaints there, though the wins themselves were nothing to brag about. Harrison was always a joke, and no positive thing can be written about that win, anymore than you can credit Adamek's win over Golota (probably less, as Golota at least had a reputation as a genuine world class heavy once upon a time).

Chisora was a decent win, I mentioned that above. Again nothing to sing praises about, but a solid win against a man on good form at the time.

Valuev was a great win only in that it won Haye a paper belt and made him a superstar among casual fans who didn't know any better. It was actually a less impressive performance than Holyfield overall (Holy was soundly robbed) and obviously a lesser achievement than Chagaev's win, since he was the first to actually do it, and with greater physical disadvantages to deal with too. It was a decent win, not a great one.

Haye was impressive enough, and notched up some good wins, but taken as a whole he didn't live up to the reputation his fans wanted to anoint him with. He was a good fighter. He didn't do enough at the top level to be labelled great. That's not silly, or revisionism. It's the truth.

Depends what you measure as success.

Toney achieved more at heavyweight (and arguably cruiserweight) than Haye.

Adamek had a comparable resume at HW and CW.

Gomez had a comparable resume at HW and a better resume at CW.

 

I'm always bemused by how easily some fans get hoodwinked by the mere application of a label.

Briedis, Usyk and Gassiev are all perfectly normal-sized old school heavyweights. Both Briedis and Gassiev have world class power, and all of them have world class skill. Yet because they fight under another weightclass it's almost as if they automatically lose thirty pounds of functional size and about three inches of height.

No one ever seriously claims that Liston or Foreman would be too small to compete at HW today. No one ever claims that Deontay Wilder is too small to compete at HW. Why? They all officially fought (or fight) at HW.

There's about five pounds difference between them and a regular CW cutting to 200.

The Three Musketeers could easily compete at HW just by fighting at their regular fight night weights. Their speed, sharpness and overall skill level would trump whatever minor disadvantages they might face in size against anyone barring Joshua. No one else has the combination of size and skill.