Where do you rate Lennox Lewis on your ATG HW-list

Excellent post.

I tend to go back and forth when rating Lewis, and part of my hesitance is largely attributed to many great posts on this forum such as yours. I have heard very good arguments both in support and in criticism of Lewis's somewhat controversial career.

I give Lewis great credit for beating a large number of rated fighters between 1991 and 2003, but like you say, his best wins were likely over washed up fighters who somehow managed to make him look less than impressive. In 1996 for example, he faced a 35 year old Ray Mercer who had not scored a single win in nearly 3 years, nor beaten a rated fighter in closer to 5. He had recent losses to an aging Holmes, Jesse Ferguson and Holyfield returning from a layoff. Not to mention, a draw with the mediocre Marion Wilson. Mercer took Lewis the distance and lost a controversial decision that some felt he should have won. I myself scored the fight a draw, but the point is, it was a very unimpressive win for Lewis.

I often feel that some folks come down too hard on Lewis for the McCall and Rahman losses, given that one occurred when Lennox was past prime, while the other may have been a result of an early stoppage. Nevertheless, both Rahman and McCall deserved the victories and neither were exceptionally good fighters.

Mike Tyson though, one year younger than Lewis, was arguably 13 years past his best, while Lewis was maybe only 3 years past his. Lewis had the size, strength and the benefit of a less turbulent life outside of the ring, which carried him into old age. Tyson was a swarmer by nature, and those types of fighters usually have an expiration date of about 30 years of age. Take into account that Tyson lost 4 years of his prime to a jail sentence, and I find it difficult to make an argument that Mike was anything but shot by 2002. Still, he came out and landed some staggering blows in the first round, showing us a glimpse of what might have happened had a 1987 version of Mike been in there.

Holyfield is commonly listed as possibly the best win for Lennox Lewis, and in fact he gave Lewis his best efforts. That is of course, for a man who was 36 years old, had endured numerous wear and tear, along with having intermittant periods of inactivity due to health problems on and off over the years. Holyfield fought what was probably a prime Lewis for a combined 24 rounds over two fights, and arguably won about 8 of them with a few rounds being very close. In my opinion, Evander Holyfield between 1989 and 1993 would have been a very treacherous ordeal for even the Lewis who dusted Ruddock in only two rounds. I would pick a peak Holyfield to beat any version of Lewis.

As previously stated, I have always credited Lewis with beating many rated opponents, but some these fights have to be examined closely. Lionel Butler, Henry Akinwande, Tommy Morrison, and a number of others were fighters, who I hold very high in question as to how deserving they were of their rated positions. Morrison chalked up a good win over George Foreman in 1993, but was shortly thereafter beaten in a single round by Michael Bent, and somewhere around that time drew with journeyman Purity. Lionel Butler was coming off a stretch of knockout wins and was certainly a dangerous opponent for an unsuspecting fighter, but had no real wins over rated oppositon and was the victom of 10 career losses. I find it odd that Butler was chosen for a title elimination bout, when there were probably several good contenders that some may have put ahead of him in that time frame.

Lastly, I won't harp on Lewis for not facing every worthy challenger, as I know there are many champions who didn't, but Lewis fans often go a little overboard crediting him as facing every top fighter of his era. Although it may be nothing more than a mere footnote, Lewis did indeed neglect to face Chris Byrd and Wladimir Klitschko when both men were certainly worthy of a crack at his title.

With all the above said, I currently rate Lennox Lewis around 6 all time. At times in the past I've had him as high as #3, while at others had him as low as #9. I feel that #6 is a reasonable balance. As I mentioned earlier, the knowledgable posters here at ESB have played a major role at influencing my decisions, and like I said, have sported good debates on both sides of the issue.

 

Magoo,

I am not convinced Lewis was "past prime" when he lost to Rahman.

That loss is sandwiched between two of his most impressive career wins, a tremendous boxing display against David Tua on one side, and the commanding and emphatic revenge win over Rahman on the other.

Technically he never looked better, was sharp and powerful, and dominant.
Perhaps his top two performances, IMO.

 

Fine, i won't disagree,.

I was only trying to cut the guy little slack. Still, there are some who would argue that Tua was very out of shape for that fight, and Rahman was a man whom he never should have lost to in the first place, overshadowing his rematch victory. Nevertheless, I hope you saw merit in some of the other points that I addressed in my post.

 

atsch


WHERE WAS ALI when his younger peer Patterson was on top of the world?
Beating up amateurs!

 

Actually, Patterson was SEVEN YEARS OLDER than Ali.

 

When Lewis had just Beaten Vitali June 2003

Wlad had just been KO'd by Sanders 3 months previous. So he was hardly in a position to demand a title fight.

Lewis was 38 and still managed to stop Vitali, who was regarded as the next dominant HW. He was very correct to retire and not embarrass himself the way the likes of Holyfield is doing today.

Byrd was never regarded as a possible threat to Lewis and proved that to be a correct assessment by eeking out a draw with Golota.

So for you to imply that Lewis was ducking these fighters makes you appear to have some agenda against Lewis

 

I have a very different take on this. I view it like this. When kids graduate from high school they can either get a trade or continue their education. Tyson chose to turn pro and Lewis choose to continue learning the fundamentals. Obviously if longivity at the top matters, he, not Tyson, made the better of the two choices. An Olympic gold metal is something these kids, Tyson included, had been dreaming about since their early teens. Lewis achieved both his dreams, one to win the gold metal and secondly to become champion of the world. To attempt to turn that into a negative, is in my opinion, a huge disservice to him.

 

Yeah, you made some good points.
Like you, I can see both sides of the Lewis debate, within reasonable parameters of course.
Personally, I would tend to rate him below at least 6 or 7 other greats, and perhaps outside the top 10. But I can understand some of the arguments for having him in the top 5.

As for his losses to McCall and Rahman, I tend to think the former is the one that can more readily be deemed to be outside his "peak", because there's a noticeable improvement in Lewis sometime later. At the time of McCall defeat, Lewis was still a work in progress, still a bit raw and prone to bad habits.

 

You would do well to remember that after turning down a Chris Byrd fight, Lewis signed to fight KIRK JOHNSON, an even lower-ranked fighter and no box-office draw either.

 

Owned!:yep

 

I have Lewis #10 head-to-head.

1. Ali
2. Liston
3. Tyson
4. Louis
5. Holmes
6. Johnson
7. Foreman
8. Frazier
9. Dempsey
10. Lewis

:good

 

In hindsite we can say that Wlad was beaten by Sanders in 2003, but in late 2002, he was 40-1, and had 5 defenses of the WBO title. He was certainly well qualified to fight Lewis.

Again you argue using hindsite. Byrd's draw with Golata did not happen until April of 2004, after Lewis had been retired for nearly a year. In 2002, Chris won the IBF title, which Lewis had vacated, when Bryrd was a top rated challenger. Byrd also had a win over Vitali Klitschko who you credit Lewis greatly for beating.

If you read my most recent post, it would be clear to you that I have a fairly well balanced view of Lewis, giving him credit for his acheivments as well as pointing out a few criticisms. Lewis was not one of my favorite fighters, but I have no agenda against him either.

 

When did Lewis fight Kirk Johnson???

Vitali did though. After he was beaten by Lewis.
A World title eliminator
You can't blame Lewis if the governing chooses them two as the one and two.

 

This is an extremely balanced post, regardless of how you rate Lewis.

 

That is ridiculous!! How can being KO'd put you in the position of getting a title fight. Are You Don King???

Not really an impressive victory when Vitali retired with a torn rotator cuff. Byrd was never in the frame.

The fact that you openly critisize Lewis for not fighting someone who has just been KO'd speaks volumes about your agenda.

Imagine if Lewis fought Wlad just after Sanders did. The bile that would be heaped upon him for giving a title shot to a comprehensively beaten fighter would have echo'd for years!

Lewis was 38 he had just beaten Vitali Klitschko and had nothing left to prove. Remember Ali at 38 thinking he had something to prove.....against Larry Holmes