where do you rate these fighters on the all-time lists ?

The only ones I'm not sold on as far as top 10 divisional rankings are Barry and McAuliffe. Both were pretty much a class above their opposition, but also certainly benefited from fighting in an era with a much lesser talent pool than the others.

 

Barry & Jimmy Wilde upper,
attell upper middle

driscoll, brown, kid chocolate lower

mcauliffe

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TroTAs25RkU[/ame]
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgyiLLaLXcY[/ame]

www.youtube.eslubin

 

All of these guys make my top 20 in their divisions

Attell I have at #6 Featherweight
Brown I have at #2 Flyweight
Driscoll I have at #3 Featherweight
McAuliffe I have #20 Lightweight
Barry #13 Flyweight
Wilde #1 Flyweight
Kid Chocolate #12 Feather

Only Jimmy makes in my lb for lb list.

I've always been impressed with his ability to KO much larger men.
I can tell you from experience they have weight classes in boxing for a reason - a reason he seems to be able to ignore!

 

I rate Brown near the top at bantam myself, not fly.

 

Which larger men would those be, outside of Tancy Lee, who outweighed him by less than 10 lbs and also holds a stoppage victory over him in their first bout?

Also, Brown wasn't a Flyweight, but rather a huge Bantamweight.

 

Further to that, how could anyone considered no.2 at a weight not make a top 100 P4P list (in the 'classic' weights anyway)

Out of them, Driscoll is the highest in my P4P rankings. Wildes fights with Lynch and YZK and his consistency are what sees him place somewhere between 50-60 on my alltime list.

 

Wilde was the son of a coal miner, who himself worked in the coal pits. Wilde was small enough to crawl through gullies impassable to most of his colleagues. Wilde first fought at the age of sixteen in fairground boxing booths, where crowds were amazed by his toughness and ability to knock down much larger opponents, most of which were local toughmen weighing around 200 lbs.

About Al Brown
On September 22, 1923, he had his first fight abroad, drawing (tying) in four rounds with Johnny Breslin, at New York. He very quickly established a presence upon relocating to New York in 1923.

His rise was rapid; A year after he moved to New York, The Ring magazine rated him the third best flyweight in the world. Two years later he was the magazine's sixth-rated bantamweight.

 

Interesting, because these are two fighters whose status was never questioned by people who understood the divsions they were fighting in.

They are verry much victims of the lack of records in their era.

 

OK. As to my question? Surely beating local toughmen doesn't enhance your standing as a professional?

OK. He was a rated contender for a year or so, and that makes him an all time top 10 Flyweight?

 

That's possible. That's why I said I wasn't sold on them, not that they were hacks.

 

There are 19 weight classes if I just took the #1 guy at each weight the top 20 would pretty well be filled up wouldn't you say?

 

There are 17 weight classes, with the original 8 holding much more standing than the Jr. divisions. Your stance is lame.

 

As to Jimmy...
No, normally I would not rank 'toughman' type encounters as an evaluation of a fighters overall ability. But sir, are you really looking at the magnitude of this? I've known a lot of boxers and seen and done a lot of it myself since 1972 when I first put on gloves - as an amateur welterweight - I've never known a flyweight that could start something with a 6'+ 200+ lb working class man (Coal miners) and walk away - much less put them down. Wilde was documented as being capable of this repeatedly. Do you know another 108-112 lb man who knocks out "working class" (coal miners) men more than twice his weight? Repeatedly? Do you know a lot of them> Because I don't and I would like very much to read about or meet him if he is a friend of yours

I could even arrange a little demonstration - we have a gym in town and we have a coal mine here near where I live and there are several 6'+ 200lb+ guys that your flyweight could practice on...
All of which are tough men and none of which is a professional boxer.
He won't have to visit here long, we will line up 6-8 of them back to back like they did in the 'boxing booths' at the fairgrounds Jimmy used and your flyweight can take them on one after another.

We also have a regional medical hospital should your flyweight cause serious injury to one of these guys, although in my experience it is usually the smaller fellow who needs medical assistance after most fights I've seen with a large size/weight disparity.


I don't mean for this to sound smartassed - this is literally what Jimmy Wilde DID. And I know of no other man that small that could - and DID do it not just one time with one desk bound bozo but repeatedly with big tough guys who knew how to brawl. I promise I will be as impressed with your guy when he does this as I am with Mr. Wilde regardless of his professional ranking among Flyweights.

About Al,
Please forgive me, I misunderstood - I thought you had questioned if he was ever a flyweight - I was attempting to show you he was and a very good one- I don't see many Bantams that are as accomplished as Al Brown, don't you think at fly (where he DID fight for over a year - and was highly rated by RING mag.) he is nearly a force of nature? I do not dispute that his longest stay was at Bantam. Or that most people rate him there. I believe that I see a good argument for placing him at Fly and know of very few boxers that could even stay in the ring with him at that weight. You are, of course, entitled to your opinion and we may disagree on this. I also want to thank you sir, for this discussion. Even though we may disagree you have kept a very civil tone and asked good questions - I appreciate that very much.
It is rare these days...

 

I count 19 inculding the amateur superheavy class but I could be wrong

Super heavyweight 91+ 91+ — — —
unlimited 1885 Heavyweight Heavyweight Heavyweight Heavyweight Heavyweight
200 / 90.7 1980[t 1] Cruiserweight Cruiserweight Cruiserweight Junior heavyweight Cruiserweight
175 / 79.4 1913 Light heavyweight Light heavyweight Light heavyweight Light heavyweight Light heavyweight
168 / 76.2 1984 Super middleweight Super middleweight Super middleweight Super middleweight Super middleweight
160 / 72.6 1884 Middleweight Middleweight Middleweight Middleweight Middleweight
154 / 69.9 1962 Super welterweight Super welterweight Junior middleweight Junior middleweight Light middleweight
147 / 66.7 1914 Welterweight Welterweight Welterweight Welterweight Welterweight
140 / 63.5 1959 Super lightweight Super lightweight Junior welterweight Junior welterweight Light welterweight
135 / 61.2 1886 Lightweight Lightweight Lightweight Lightweight Lightweight
130 / 59.0 1959 Super featherweight Super featherweight Junior lightweight Junior lightweight Super featherweight
126 / 57.2 1889 Featherweight Featherweight Featherweight Featherweight Featherweight
122 / 55.3 1976 Super bantamweight Super bantamweight Junior featherweight Junior featherweight Super bantamweight
118 / 53.5 1894 Bantamweight Bantamweight Bantamweight Bantamweight Bantamweight
115 / 52.2 1980 Super flyweight Super flyweight Junior bantamweight Junior bantamweight Super flyweight
112 / 50.8 1911 Flyweight Flyweight Flyweight Flyweight Flyweight
108 / 49.0 1975 Light flyweight Light flyweight Junior flyweight Junior flyweight Light flyweight
105 / 47.6 1987 Minimumweight Strawweight Mini flyweight Mini flyweight Minimumweight
80 / 40.6 1987 Paperweight Paperweight Mini Paperweight Mini Paperweight Paperweight





Please excuse me then, can you tell me why and in fact how all your #2's at each weight among your 17 weight classes can automatically fit into a top 20 all time lb for lb. That is in fact - your position, not mine. You questioned me as to how a #2 on one of my lists does NOT make it into my all time list.

In the end I believe we have the same problem - too many great fighters and too few top slots. What are your criteria for filling those slots?

And I would also like to hear why the original 8 hold so much more standing than the Jr. divisions? Isn't boxing "every day in every way" getting better and better? Aren't the modern fighters, blessed with such superior diet, exercise and skills training, making all comparisons with the past lopsided?