Where does Graziano rate all time at middleweight?

You make some valid points, but your ranking of Cerdan flies a bit in the face of them. Cerdan waited just as long as LaMotta with facing Williams and only managed a slim victory (AP had it a draw) in his home town. Unlike LaMotta he didn't meet any of the others from the murderer's row.

I do agree that there's a big question mark over LaMottas win over Cerdan, though. By today's rules that would have been an NC, I think. In Jake's defense, he did give Cerdan an immediate rematch and only a tragic plane crash stopped it from happening. But I do have a bit of a hard time seeing it as a truly legit win, even though injuries have played a part in many famous wins. Too bad we never got to see the rematch.

There's too little film avaliable for me to really rate the 40's MW era one way or the other. Three certified ATGs were active in it, but they all had their best years in other weight classes, either before or after .

It was a colourful and vibrant era and the murderer's row give it an added mystique. And one can't just dismiss the extremely high praise both Futch and Moore bestowed on Burley, and wonder how things would have turned out for him had he received a fairer shake.

 

Thread very educational one.

 

I agree with all of this except the first half of the Cerdan part.

"Cerdan waited just as long as LaMotta with facing Williams"

When he was in Europe and Williams in the US during WWII? I am not certain Cerdan could have gotten to the US if he wanted to. But why he should be criticized for not somehow making it to the US to fight Williams at a time he was in a war zone and his motherland was occupied? LaMotta and Williams were both active in the US. It was still Cerdan who fought Williams first right after the war.

"his home town"

Cerdan won the majority of his major fights and his championship in a foreign land. LaMotta did fight, and lose, in Montreal, but when did he go to Europe or any other foreign country for a fight? Seems a cheap shot against Cerdan to me. Actually, Cerdan fought a lot of fights outside his home country. LaMotta didn't even go to the west coast when Booker and Chase and Moore were out there for potential fights.

 

I doubt Graziano makes the Top-50 ATG Middleweights and it's hard to tell whereabouts down the list he'd sit, behind the 50.

He is a big puncher, but as far as I am aware, he has one win of note.

 

Cerdan was active throughout the war, but you're right that LaMotta had more opportunity to fight Williams since both were based in the US. "Waited" was also a poor choice of words, since I wouldn't accuse anyone of them of waiting Williams out. But if anyone of them was, it would most likely be LaMotta. Agree with that.

Saying that Cerdan and Williams fought in Cerdan's home town was not meant as a slight on Cerdan. I just meant that it seemed to be a close fight that perhaps would have gone the other way had it been fought in Williams home town. I did not mean to imply anything sinister on Cerdan's part.

 

Well it took Paul Newman to portray him in a movie, so he must be considered the most handsome MW.

 

"Zale"

Okay, I can see dropping Zale behind Burley and Williams. It does, however, depend on assuming competition during WWII was comparable to pre-war competition. If that premise isn't correct? The folks who were there at the time didn't think it was.

"Cerdan"

Unlike Zale's rating, I don't see any problem rating Cerdan above LaMotta. True, LaMotta won their fight, but

1-----even if Cerdan hadn't been injured, he was 33 to LaMotta's 27. If anyone was slipping, it was Cerdan.

2-----Cerdan had to fight with one hand. Here is Red Smith on this fight:

"In spite of his injury and in spite of a severe beating in the first round, Cerdan won the second round big and the third and fifth by lesser margins. A master at handling his opponent, timing him, tying him up, slipping or blocking punches, and setting him up, Cerdan could do none of this one-handed. He couldn't even stick out his left to ward off his foe . . . It is difficult to believe LaMotta would have a chance with a two-handed Cerdan."

3-----If LaMotta was viewed as such a terror, why was Cerdan a 2-1 favorite going in? Folks certainly had seen enough of LaMotta to realize he was this great, great fighter, if he in fact was.

4-----Cerdan's overall record is far the better. He fought younger and older, and lost only 4 times, twice on fouls.
LaMotta was in and out all his career. Jake was 29-9-2 from 1946 on, and wasn't yet 32 when he fought his last fight, having slipped all the way to journeyman status. Cerdan entered the ring in his last fight older than that but still the world champion.

5-----I am certain the defense of LaMotta would be based on fighting more rated fighters, but those ratings are by an American magazine and totally American centered, so I view them with some skepticism regarding non-American fighters.

"Where is Ezzard Charles"

At light-heavy. Did he really do enough at middle to make this list? If you think he did, what about Overlin and Tunero, who beat him? Charles was fighting at light-heavy even before the war.

"Lloyd Marshall"

Would rate very high if considered a middleweight. But another who largely fell apart after the war, and was never that outstanding before the war.

It boils down to is the escalator going up or going down. If a man like Burley loses to someone, you put that man on the escalator going up in esteem rather than Burley on the escalator going down for losing. But, it can be looked at the opposite way.

"Graziano"

Some fair criticisms here, but how many fighters actually KO'd three undisputed world champions who were champions when they entered the ring with him. Marty Servo was the welter champion who had lost only to Robinson with the their second fight a hotly disputed split decision. Everyone here dismisses this KO, but the folks at the time gave Rocky a lot of credit for that one, 7 lb. weight pull or not.

"Lytell"

He was #1 contender when Cerdan was the champion. He should have gotten a shot ahead of LaMotta, but had lost to him when green. Perhaps there should have been a LaMotta-Lytell elimination rematch. But once Lytell started winning, Jake stayed away until his mob friends got him his shot over the higher rated Lytell and Belloise.

 

Okay. Fair enough.

 

Good points about Cerdan. Such a tragedy that we didn't get to see more of the man. His bravery against LaMotta was something else. That was a good generation of French MWs as a whole. I feel that Dautheille (or however it's spelled) was a bit hard done by never getting another shot at the title.

Lytell is one of The Row that doesn't get much mentions, but he was at the top for a while but got shafted like so many other good black fighters during that decade.

 

Gotta love how people like to claim Robinson and LaMotta ducked Burley and Williams yet both guys beat men who beat them. Yeah, lets just ignore the economics of the fact that Burley couldnt draw flies if he covered himself in horse manure and Williams wasnt much better. In fact, the only way Williams ever made any money in his own hometown was when LaMotta showed up to fight him. Williams and Burley were no better Robinson MWs or not and LaMotta fought him 6 times, why? They could draw. The argument with both sets of murderers rows greatness is so circular its ridiculous. Why was Williams great? Because he beat Cocoa Kid. Why was Cocoa Kid great? Because he beat Williams... Therefore both guys could have beaten Robinson or LaMotta? What about Cerdan, Basora, Janazzo, Abrams, Angott, you know, guys who beat guys like Williams but lost to Robinson and LaMotta? This of course is besides the fact that Williams fought only a handful of times anywhere near where Robinson and LaMotta were established draws and almost everytime he did he was unimpressive, meaning people werent begging him back. Sound like another supposedly feared fighter youve heard of? Burley anyone? It would be one thing if Robinson and LaMotta werent fighting guys in the mix but they were they were beating guys every bit as good as Williams, Cocoa Kid, and Burley. You cant fight everybody in that era and especially not if no promoter is pushing it. It all starts with the money. If the money is there to be made then a promoter has to arrange it. Show me where this ever happened. And I dont mean Burleys manager blowingon about how he is offering Robinson some pie in the sky fortune that he cant get while Burley is having work full time as garbage man to make ends meet. I mean an actual promoter who doesnt have a vested interest in Burley or Williams etc offering a bonafide fight that these guys refused for no good reason. You cant do it. In 1945 Robinson and LaMotta drew almost 20,000 fans and almost $100,000 at the gate. Burley and Williams, despite being these supposedly badass feared fighters drew 3,000. Williams and Moore drew a crowd of 5000 and a gate of only $13,000. Do the math on how low those tickets were priced to get 5,000. The bottom line is if you have no leverage to bargain, cant handle your end of the promotion, and the other guy is beating guys who beat you then you dont really have much of a leg to stand on claiming they were ducking you.

 

I don't see the argument as circular at all, Burley had many good wins and overall had a better record than LaMotta. LaMotta lost to guys who were worse than Burley in real life Dauthille and Hudson for example.

 

I would say Holman Williams prime was 1941 to 1945. During this period he was beating good fighters and was pretty consistent. I would say that during that period he was greater than anyone LaMotta beat bar Sugar Ray Robinson. Later on in his career he became inconsistent but during this period he was probably a better fighter than LaMotta at his peak.

 

To be fair, that casting director would have had Eva Mendes playing Susan Boyle!