Where does Graziano rate all time at middleweight?

Graziano never beat a top 10 rated middleweight yet got 3 title shots at middleweight

This is unprecedented in boxing history


For a man who values RING ratings very highly, I’m shocked you are so quick to Grazianos defense.

“3 welterweight champs”

Who were vastly inferior to the 160lb men who were rated above graziano whom graziano did not fight

In an era filled with hall of fame middleweights like Williams Burley Lamotta and Cerdan...Graziano instead fought men in a different weight class instead of proving his worth vs the best contenders in his own weight class. He admitted to doing so in fear of getting eliminated from a title shot

Speaking of the welterweights, how did they do at middle?

Servo- never fought anyone at 160 besides graziano

Cochrane - never fought anyone at 160 besides graziano

Davis- never fought anyone at 160 besides graziano

 

Cerdan was a tank and lamotta wasn’t? Lamotta threw cerdan around like a ragdolll in that first round. Lamotta on films looked like the stronger man

Lamotta also defeated 15 men who at one time another were RING top 10 at 160. Cerdans resume doesn’t stack up

I think Edwards top 6 is very weak leaving out some big names at 160 who belong over Graziano like Marshall Booker Charles and Moore. And I personally cannot see Zale being above Burley or Williams. His resume is too thin.

 

Before the shoulder injury, cerdan was staggered badly by lamotta and was getting battered around the ring by punches...this can be verified in fight reports and on film

Small sample size...but lamotta was off to a really good start against cerdan and may have just had his number


Fair point about the war with cerdan....

“American centered”

Yet he never took on the best of Europe

Then how come cerdan never fought the bets middleweight of his own country in Robert Villemain? Would have been a real test for Marcel

And what about Laurent Dauthuille? No fight against him?

Also he split with Cyrille Dellanoit

Lastly why not fight tiberio Mitri? He knocked out Turpin in 1 round. Lamotta beat him in a title defense

“All fighters who peaked at light H”

Yes but they were still excellent middleweights..maybe not as much in the case of Moore but the rest for sure

Charles beat Charley Burley TWICE, and knocked out Jose Basora and Steve Mamakos at 160

Marshall beat middleweight champions Yarosz, Brouillard and Overlin, Risko, and Lamotta...that’s 5 word champions at 160. He also beat Charley Burley.

Marshall’s resume at 160 is eye popping

Booker beat Matthews, Moore, Williams, Chase and Marshall at 160

Moore beat Richards (beat lesnevich) and chase at 160. I agree Moore’s resume is lacking at 160


“Wrestling move”

Seems more of a half punch/push

Judge for yourself

This content is protected

50 second mark

From Steve Compton

The one interview I did which really stands out was with Alan Rosenfeld who wrote the book on Burley. Rosenfeld was ringside that night. He said that prior to the bout LaMotta was not given much of a chance by insiders who felt he was rapidly fading (which I partly agree with). He said LaMotta entered the ring with his leopard skin robe and when he took the robe off he looked like he was carved from stone. He said it electrified the crowd who now expected Cerdan to have a fight on his hands and that the audience all went "ooooh" in unison as the robe came off (they had not expected him to be in that great of condition). He stated that much has been made of Cerdan's shoulder injury but that what is rarely mentioned is that LaMotta was beating the hell out of Cerdan before the injury and that he was literally lifting him off the canvas with bodyshots (which was LaMottas specialty). He stated that he wasnt convinced by Cerdan's injury and even added that from his vantage point it looked like a half punch half push that sent Cerdan as opposed to the now accepted story that LaMotta wrestled him to the canvas. He closed by saying that he didnt think Cerdan would have beaten LaMotta that night with or without the injury.

Another guy I interviewed was Leon Thompson. He was an old fighter who fought out of Chicago and served as Zales sparring partner. He had sparred with Cerdan for the media prior to Cerdans bout with Zale, Anton Raadik, Jackie Conn, and several others. Decent club fighter. Anyway he didnt have much to add as we spoke more about Zale but he basically backed up what Rosenfeld said. He said he really liked Cerdan and that he was a nice guy (though he couldnt speak much english) but added that he didnt think Cerdan or Zale could have beaten LaMotta. I was surprised to hear him say that about Zale because he was really fond of Tony and kept in touch with him until Tony died. He was even kind of managed or at least helped a bit by Art Winch and Sam Piam (Zales handlers).

The Rosenfeld interview was from around 2004 maybe. The Thompson interview was around 1999 or 2000

 

He fought a 35 year old Zale, and Abrams coming off a 4 year layoff.

He fought a 31 year old Williams in cerdans hometown and the AP scored it Even.

He avoided the best fighters in Europe Villemain Mitri and Dauthille.
Its debateable at best that Cerdan was better than Villemain or Dauthille as both of them fought better opposition at that weight and never got a crack at Cerdan which they would have accepted in a heart beat.

What great fighters near their prime did cerdan ever beat?


Lamotta Cerdan definitely should not be a no contest...cerdan tried to clinch Lamotta because Lamotta hurt cerdan very badly with a left hook and was pummeling him in the corner...
So cerdan clinched him and he happened to go to the ground from a half push/punch

See for yourself Lamotta had badly hurt cerdan and was pounding on him

0:42-54 seconds

This content is protected

Doesn’t look like Lamotta did anything dirty here...cerdan happens to fall from a half push/punch while he was trying to clinch to prevent Lamotta from beating on him some more


From Steve Compton

The one interview I did which really stands out was with Alan Rosenfeld who wrote the book on Burley. Rosenfeld was ringside that night. He said that prior to the bout LaMotta was not given much of a chance by insiders who felt he was rapidly fading (which I partly agree with). He said LaMotta entered the ring with his leopard skin robe and when he took the robe off he looked like he was carved from stone. He said it electrified the crowd who now expected Cerdan to have a fight on his hands and that the audience all went "ooooh" in unison as the robe came off (they had not expected him to be in that great of condition). He stated that much has been made of Cerdan's shoulder injury but that what is rarely mentioned is that LaMotta was beating the hell out of Cerdan before the injury and that he was literally lifting him off the canvas with bodyshots (which was LaMottas specialty). He stated that he wasnt convinced by Cerdan's injury and even added that from his vantage point it looked like a half punch half push that sent Cerdan as opposed to the now accepted story that LaMotta wrestled him to the canvas. He closed by saying that he didnt think Cerdan would have beaten LaMotta that night with or without the injury.

Another guy I interviewed was Leon Thompson. He was an old fighter who fought out of Chicago and served as Zales sparring partner. He had sparred with Cerdan for the media prior to Cerdans bout with Zale, Anton Raadik, Jackie Conn, and several others. Decent club fighter. Anyway he didnt have much to add as we spoke more about Zale but he basically backed up what Rosenfeld said. He said he really liked Cerdan and that he was a nice guy (though he couldnt speak much english) but added that he didnt think Cerdan or Zale could have beaten LaMotta. I was surprised to hear him say that about Zale because he was really fond of Tony and kept in touch with him until Tony died. He was even kind of managed or at least helped a bit by Art Winch and Sam Piam (Zales handlers).

The Rosenfeld interview was from around 2004 maybe. The Thompson interview was around 1999 or 2000

 

Let me know what Zale bio says regarding Burley Williams And Lamotta

 

Interesting how much you defend cerdan over Lamotta

You say ratings were “American centered”

Yet Lamotta fought and beat the 4 best European middleweights Mitri, Dauthille, Villemain, and Cerdan.

How did cerdan do against the best of Europe? He never fought Villemain, dauthille, or Mitri despite all three challenging cerdan. He fought Delannoit and split 1-1 with him

Clear edge for Lamotta