Where does Graziano rate all time at middleweight?

Robert Villemain fought Jake LaMotta on 3/25/1949. Here are the scores of the judges and the wire services.

Referee Harry Ebbetts (6-4-2 LaMotta)
Judge Harold Barnes (6-5-1 LaMotta)
Judge Charley Shortell (7-4-1 Villemain)
AP scorecard (7-4-1 Villemain)
UPI scorecard (7-3-2 Villemain)
Poll of 13 ringside reporters (12-1 Villemain)

"On March 28, 1949, three days after the bout, NYSAC chairman Eddie Eagan suspended indefinitely referee Harry Ebbetts, and judge Harold Barnes because of their scoring in the bout, with them not to receive assignments for an indefinite period. Eagan stated, 'In view of the international importance of the bout and the fact that their cards were contrary to the viewpoint of practically all those who witnessed the contest, especially the members of the commission, it was felt that disciplinary action was required."

On 12-9-1949 now champion LaMotta fought a non-title fight with Villemain.

Referee Ruby Goldstein (5-3 Villemain)
Judge Young Otto (7-3 Villemain)
Judge Joe Agnello (7-3 Villemain)
AP scorecard (7-3 Villemain)

"Squared accounts for the 25 year old Parisian who licked Jake in the Garden last March but lost the decision. The verdict, one of the rankest in years, resulted in the suspension of the two officials who voted for LaMotta."

Question one--why wasn't this a title fight? Question two--why didn't LaMotta now give Villemain a shot at his title? One of the most blatant ducks in history.

on 1-7-1949, Villemain had fought Steve Belloise, who entered 1949 actually higher rated than LaMotta.

Referee Eddie Joseph (6-4 Belloise)
Judge Harold Barnes (7-3 Belloise)
Judge Artie Ardala (7-2-1 Belloise)
AP scorecard (8-1-1 Belloise)

So LaMotta loses a UD to Dauthuille, who was ordinary in Europe, and stinks out the Garden but gets an undeserved decision over Villemain, who was a coming off a decisive loss to Belloise. Belloise was higher rated than Jake going in. So who gets the title shot. LaMotta!

Jake's fairy godfathers in the mob were really paying him back for that dive against Fox.

Now we will get something about Graziano, I suppose, but no one is rating Graziano the #5 all time middleweight like The Ring rates LaMotta.

Bottom line is that although only 27 when he won his title, LaMotta ducked Belloise, Villemain, and Sands as champion, all of whom were probably better fighters. For me, these discussions and the subsequent research have caused my opinion of Jake to sink like a rock in water. I came in knowing there was some New York hype, but a close look at his post-WWII record indicates his "great fighter" rep might be all hype.

As for Cerdan, the major criticism I would make of him now is that he defended against LaMotta rather than the far more deserving Belloise.

 

On the Euros who you say were better than Cerdan, my research doesn't support this. Actually, it is a circular argument because a guy like Dauthuille was losing to every one in Europe, but beats LaMotta decisively in 1949. How you spin this against Cerdan who fought Delannoit who had just beat Dauthuille twice is a head-scratcher. Even Villemain's rep is for the most part built on his being better than LaMotta, which he was. Other than that, he lost badly to Belloise, Sands, and Robinson.

Thanks for posting the film. Looks like he threw Cerdan down with a wrestling move to me. But even if this was some sort of legit semi-knockdown, it is still just luck that Cerdan was hurt and had to fight one-handed after that. And it doesn't obviate Jake being 27 and Cerdan 33.

As I have said on these threads, all of the forties middles including Cerdan are under a cloud because of WWII, so one can point to a relatively thin resume by Cerdan, but he didn't lose often, and his wins were legit. LaMotta comes off to me as dubious all the way. He wasn't in the service, but somehow missed Burley, Moore, and Williams during WWII. He missed Abrams, Belloise, Lytell, etc. after the war. He ducked Belloise, Sands, and Villemain as champion. He won the title on an injury caused by what looks like a foul to me. He didn't deserve the title shot he got. Perhaps he could have beaten the 33 year old Cerdan anyway, but for me there is a cloud over him as any kind of champion.

"He fought the 31 year old Williams in Cerdan's hometown"

So. Is this something to criticize him for? LaMotta had years to fight Williams but didn't until after Williams loses to Cerdan.

"Abrams"

Was 28 and coming off a win over Belloise. He would beat Raadik in his next fight. He gave Robinson a very tough fight in 1947 and there were many who thought he won it. Hard sell for me that this was not a worthy win for Cerdan. Williams and Abrams were in the top five when Cerdan fought them.

"Zale" "was 35"

And Cerdan could help that. Zale was the champion.

"What great fighters in their prime did Cerdan ever beat"

LaMotta did beat a great fighter who was 16 lbs. lighter. Hard to tell what a middleweight Cerdan or a lot of others would have done if given 5 shots at a welter Robinson with a 16 lb. weight pull. Still this was a great win, and LaMotta certainly rode it over the years for all it was worth.

And I'm still waiting for the name of the guy LaMotta "policed" for Graziano or anyone else. It was Robinson who eliminated Belloise and Villemain although both deserved title shots. In fairness, it was Cerdan who should have defended against Belloise.

 

"at least he fought them"

As none of those Euros you're naming were much of anything prior to 1948, when Cerdan was 32, how likely is it that he could have fought them. If you want to ride this argument, go ahead, but it strikes as a really nothing point. You are criticizing a man for not fighting guys who peaked after he was dead.

"Cerdan was carefully matched"

Hard to see Williams and Abrams in 1946 as careful match-ups. LaMotta in 1949 was. Belloise was more dangerous.

"how much more highly regarded LaMotta was than Cerdan"

Cerdan went into their fight a 2-1 favorite despite being 33 to LaMotta's 27, and the bout being in LaMotta's country and LaMotta's home away from home.

"He failed to fight the best in his own country"

Yes, he did. How else did he become French welter and middle champ, as well as European welter and middle champion. What you should say is you think the top Euros who came up from 1948 on were better than the top Euros Cerdan defeated from 1945-1947. Okay, but this certainly is not proof that Cerdan was inferior to his successors. Cerdan had more success in America. He beat Abrams who was coming off a win over Belloise, and Belloise easily beat Villemain. Dauthuille was mediocre in Europe. He actually drew with Giavanni Manca. You knock Cerdan for losing once to Delannoit, but Delannoit beat Dauthuille twice going into the fight. And Dauthuille turns around and decisively beats LaMotta.

Anyway, even if we accept that Cerdan is the overrated hype job you make out, how does this reflect on LaMotta? He won the title from an unworthy champion? How does that build his stature? I can see though why you must argue Villemain and even Dauthuille are better than Cerdan, because they were really better in the ring than LaMotta. Villemain beat LaMotta twice, but lost the first fight because the mob had probably bought the officials. The ordinary Dauthuille beat LaMotta decisively the first time, and it took a miracle comeback for Jake to pull one out in their second fight.

The argument against Cerdan is an argument made from a lack of evidence. The argument against LaMotta is an argument made from a ton of evidence.

 

Cerdan injured his left shoulder when he was thrown to the canvas by LaMotta in the first round. Because of that, LaMotta pounded on him.

You hold Williams in high regard. Cerdan beat him. The AP is pro American, not French, so them calling it a draw signals to me that Cerdan was likely the better. Foreign fighters back then had it tough with American judges.

Zale did not look shot, beating Grazino 3 months ago in three rounds. Since this was Zale's last fight, its tough to judge if he was shot.

Abrams was 28, and had 4 fights in 1946 before he meet Cerdan. Hardly a layoff, he was active and in his prime

Since Abrams, Zale and Williams are in the hall of fame, Cerdan has three great wins.

I don't know a lot about Villemain Mitri and Dauthille. Now I see LaMotta beat them. Where were they ranked when Cerdan was champion? Okay, let me take a look at these guys....

Cerdan defeated a top European fighter in Delannoit, who beat Dauthuille.

2 of Cerdan's looses were via DQ. Another via injury which happened in round one. The 4th he avenged.

110-4, with only one stoppage loss when he was injured, he was that good. Watch any film when he was not hurt, and you'll see

 

They were the best men in Europe just before, and during Cerdan's reign.Dauthille was at the end of the trail when Humez beat him.

 

As world champion, okay.

But none of these guys were that much prior to 1948, and Dauthuille was losing to all the others, but he beat LaMotta decisively.

There is a ? over Cerdan because of the war and his relatively thin resume, and I acknowledge that the post-1948 Euros were better than Cerdan's 1945-1947 victims, but jumping from that to these guys were all better than Cerdan is a leap of logic I don't accept.

As for 1948, Cerdan understandably was going for the world crown at that point. If someone was considered a more worthy challenger than Delannoit, who was it? Certainly not Dauthuille who was coming off two losses to Delannoit.

 

I think Suze is overstating his case to some extent the French and Belgian guy weren't a factor at world level before 48 .It would be interesting to have access to the Euro rankings of the 40's.

Good debate, with excellent points being put forward by both of you.

 

must go now but will be back. Am enjoying discussion and am learning a great deal about 1940's middleweights.

 

I'm not disagreeing with you ,I just don't think the case for Cerdan avoiding them is as clear cut as I at first thought.

 

Good stuff from both of you. Unfortunately neither LaMotta or Cerdan comes out very well from these closer looks, and the corruption of the whole division in the 40's looks even worse.

 

LaMottas win over Lytell was also close and controversial. Would like to know more about the Williams win. The crowd booed, but the judges's cards were wide in the favor of Jake and the only newspaper article (looks to be an AP telegram) that's linked from Boxrec doesn't say anything about it being an unjust decision. Only that LaMotta took a substantial lead early on and that Williams rallied in the late rounds.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?...2832975&dq=jake+lamotta+holman+williams&hl=en

The Villemain win seems definitely to be rotten, though. And the writer that covered the fight for The Ring doesn't really seem like he felt that LaMotta earned his decision over Yarosz: "Apparently influenced more by his threatening gestures and sporadic rallies than by the steady point-collecting jabs, hooks, uppercuts and straight rights of his opponent, the officials voted a unanimous decision to Jake LaMotta..over Tommy Yarosz."

There seems to be a fair bit of question marks on several of LaMottas best wins. Were the judges bought for the Villemain win? Were the decisions over Lytell and Yarosz wrong? Was there anything controversial about the Williams win or was that just a partisan home crowd voicing their displeasure over their fighter losing? What did Williams have left at the time? What would have happened if Cerdan wasn't injured?

And as an aside, can it ever be an NC if the injured fighter continues? Cerdan carrying on must eliminated the possibility of an NC, no? Could he have gotten it otherwise?

 

Can we put LaMotta in the top 20 of all time MWs?


Results against main MW opponents:

1-0 against Williams, no clear case for controversy here, despite the boos, but Williams had probably started to slip at the time.

1-0 against Cerdan, but injury played a part.

1-0 against Lytell, but apparently controversial.

1-0 against Mitri. No controversy, it seems.

2-1-1 against Basora. No controversies in either fight as far as I can see.

1-1 against Dauthuille.

1-1 but 0-2 in reality it seems against Villemain.

Then he also has victories (and no losses or draws) against fringe contenders Delicurti and Janiro.


It's a difficult resume to know how to rate for me. As are Williams's and Burley's tbf.