Where does Graziano rate all time at middleweight?

Williams did about the same as LaMotta against Basora. He did better against Marshall (2-1), but there seems to have been some controversy over both his wins. He must be said to have done better against Lytell on balance.

LaMotta did better against Cerdan and, of course, in their h2h meet. But Cerdan's injury and Williams's age and wear and tear leaves some question marks here.

With three fights against Marshall, two fights against Moore, several fights against Lytell and countless fights against Cocoa Kid and Burley, there can be little doubt that Williams faced the tougher competition over his career.

I lean towards ranking Williams higher than LaMotta, but I suppose an argument can be made in LaMottas favor.

 

"Robert Villemain proved himself France's top middleweight as early as 1946."

He and the Belgium Delannoit fought at WELTER in 1946. How a 22 year old welter beating a barely 20 year old green welter proves he is better than a Cerdan who was beating top five world middles Williams and Abrams that year certainly is logic which eludes me.

Interestingly, Cerdan was not the Euro middle champ in 1946. He won the title by fighting the mediocre Leon Fouquet in 1947. Why did the EU sanction that fight rather than one with the supposedly sensational Villemain? Obviously, because Villemain was not yet even a middleweight.

"he never proved himself the best of his own country?"

Quote the French source which believes this about Cerdan,

although I think it is a fair statement about LaMotta. Belloise and Abrams were probably the best post-war US middles, Robinson excepted.

Anyway, all of this is beside the point concerning LaMotta. If Cerdan is as puffed up as you claim, then LaMotta's rating takes an even bigger hit, because no matter how you spin it, he wasn't ever able to handle Villemain in the ring even though he fought him when Jake was 26 and 27. Cerdan being a phony would only mean that LaMotta won the title from that phony, and fouled him doing it.

 

"novice Lavern Roach"

Roach was coming off a win over Tony Janiro two months earlier. If he was a novice, what does that say about LaMotta who went life and death with Janiro a few months earlier.

Roach was on a winning streak, was coming off a win over Tony Janiro, and also had wins over Billy Arnold and Norman Rubio, name fighters of the era.

"a mismatch"

Sure was, but Roach with his win over Janiro had proven himself to be on the same level as LaMotta and Jake's competition. Cerdan proved himself a level above. Hard to buy that Cerdan had the pull with MSG to pick his opponents.

"He ducked a . . . .load of people both in France and the US."

You are right that Cerdan didn't fight many top men after his death. Other than that, and Belloise, whom he should have defended against rather than the unworthy LaMotta, I don't see whom he clearly ducked.

Unlike Jake, who was the king of the mallards.

 

LaMotta is not top 10 in fact you can make a good case for him being below Villemain

 

It is a fact that Lamotta enjoyed very significant weight advantages over Robinson in all of their 6 fights.
1.Ray 145lbs Jake 157.75lbs=12.75lbs
2.Ray 144.5 Jake 160.5lbs= 16lbs
3.Ray145 Jake 160.75bs =15.75lbs
4.Ray148.5lbs Jake 158lbs =8.5 lbs
5.Ray150lbs Jake159lb s = 9lbs
6.Ray155.5lbs Jake 160lbs = 4.5lbs
Since Robinson was 3 times inside the welter weight limit,2 times under 150lbs and only once above it, Lamotta's fights against Ray were a middle weight versus a welter weight, except for their last one in which Lamotta was stopped! So they were not middleweight fights at all!

 

Nonsense post dealt with above!

 

To me it seems like a clear shove. But no fault of Jake's, he was just trying to keep Cerdan from tying him up.

And this with injuries in fights is tricky... There were injuries involved when Ali beat Liston and Patterson, when Hagler beat Hearns, when Floyd beat Pac, when Loma beat Rigo and so on and so on.

And apparently LaMotta was injured himself. So it is very hard to say, and it is a bit unfair to LaMotta who seemed to be in great shape and started off with a bang. But seeing Cerdan fight almost one armed for more than eight rounds and still do quite well (won three of them according to the famous boxing writer Red Smith) does beg the question of what would have happened if his shoulder wasn't injured. I can't get away from that.

This is Red Smith on the fight:

"In spite of his injury and in spite of a severe beating in the first round ... Cerdan won the second round big and the third and fifth by lesser margins. A master at handling his opponent, turning him, tying him up, slipping or blocking his punches, and setting him up, Cerdan could do none of this one-handed. He couldn't even stick his left out to ward off his foe ... it is difficult to believe LaMotta would have a chance with a two-handed Cerdan."

This is LaMotta on his injured hand:

"I don't know which round I hurt the left ... maybe the third or fourth ... I think it is a fracture." Despite the injured hand, LaMotta landed 104 blows in the ninth round, whereas Cerdan scarcely threw a punch.

 

Robinson also did better against common opponents Zivic and Villemain.

 

I find the historical, all-time middleweight rankings a bit of a labyrinth. However, in my initial look at the records, LaMotta stands out as an anomaly, in terms of how highly he's rated (often top-15).

Questioning a place for him in the top 20 certainly seems a valid line of inquiry.

 

I think this discussion so far has been Classic at its best really. Discussing in a civil manner with humility and interesting info constantly being posted.

 

Just on Robert Villemain being a welter in France prior to 1948, I dug up some info:

10-14-1946-----Villemain wins French welter title from Omar Kouidi

6-1-1947-----Villemain wins Euro welter title from Kid Marcel

12-17-1947-----Villemain defends Euro welter title against Omar Kouidi.

I think it obvious Villemain was not in the same weight class as Cerdan until early 1948, so there is not much to explain why the two never fought.

*but Villemain raises a lot of questions about LaMotta. Seems Villemain was a short (5' 6") swarmer with not much of a punch. He was still a welter at 23 going into 1948. A year later he beats LaMotta twice. Why wasn't the supposedly physically overpowering LaMotta able to handle a smallish swarmer?

**I have not seen Villemain on film so am judging off record and ringside reports.

***I just discovered on you tube a film of the 1950 fight in Paris with Sugar Ray Robinson. Villemain indeed looks very short, but seems quick with his bobbing and weaving. But I don't see how he could fight LaMotta w/o carrying the fight to him, so the physically imposing LaMotta struggling so much with Villemain is rather eye-opening. Unfortunately, only some of the 8th and 9th rounds were on the film, but it is a very clear pro film.

 

LaMotta's dubious or close decisions have been alluded to, but Jake won 9 split decisions over the years, and the controversial fights besides those already mentioned include both of his first two SD over Zivic, his win over Lou Woods, two with Ossie Harris, etc. No doubt that Jake had a lot of near runs.

Just on Graziano. Whatever else is said about Rocky, he didn't rely much on the judges. Most of his name opponents were KO'd. Graziano KO'd Tony Zale, Marty Servo, Red Cochrane, Charley Fusari, Tony Janiro, Gene Burton, Harold Green, Bummy Davis, Chuck Hunter, Cecil Hudson, and Henry Brimm.

Unless the opponent went into the tank, these KO's are clear victories, which is not always true if it goes to the judges, especially with the mob involvement and smelly decisions of that era, so it is not surprising that KO victories gave Graziano an edge with the public.