Where Does Holyfield Rank In ATG Lists Now?

Top-10 (lower-half) for mine. But I wouldn't argue with those that have him just outside.

 

Outside the top 10, there's just too many all time greats that I think beat him head to head.

 

I think it's a bit harsh to make too much of the Lewis fights. Lewis was at his peak and Holy was some six years past his. I rather give him credit for being more competitive than anyone else at the time with Lewis in the rematch.

And I am frankly quite astonished how often it has to be said that Holy was further past his prime than Tyson when they met. And Tyson actually had better wins coming into the fight than Bowe had for what it's worth. The notion that Bowe was better than that version of Tyson rests solely on the fact that he did better against a better version of Holy, which makes it into a bit of circular logic. If the best you faced always is the guy that beat you, then any loss will mean that you lost to the best you faced. But of course, Bowe beat a prime Holy.

With that said, I agree that the losses to Bowe and Moorer hurt his legacy. But I still have a hard time having Dempsey and Jeffries ahead of him. Of course it's going to be easier not to lose in your prime if you just don't face the guys most likely to beat you. That does go for Wlad as well, but his resume has so much more depth than Dempsey's and Jeffries's.

And as for Liston, you can say without a doubt that he lost to the best he faced. Otherwise he was more consistent in and around his pime, sure, but it was also a quite short window and he really shat the bed twice against Ali imo. Compare Holy with an injured rotator cuff AND a heart condition against Moorer with Liston against Ali. For me the most likely thing is that Liston quit because he was losing in both fights and that is a blow to his legacy.

And Foreman also has a prime resume lacking in depth and consistency. But, yeah, the Frazier demolition probably elevates it over Holy's anyway, and he had a quite decent resurgence as well. So, yes, perhaps he should be ahead of Holy.

 

Ali
Louis
Lewis
Holmes
Marciano
Wladimir

Are ahead of Holyfield for me.

Then you have the likes of Foreman, Frazier, Liston, Dempsey, Tyson.

I would say overall Holyfield is somewhere in the bottom half of the top 10 with the 5 names I listed above, or maybe just outside the top 10 depending on your criteria.

If you're talking about head to head I don't think Holyfield or Marciano would make my top 10 though.

 

I agree Lewis was peak vs Holy, whilst at 36 and 37 respectively, I'd be applying double standards to consider these as prime defeats for Evander, and so I don't. Lewis 1 was less than 2-years after 2 of Holyfield's best wins, in the Tyson & Moorer rematches, though. I don't disregard the Lewis defeats, but don't consider them prime losses either.

I disagree that Tyson was further removed from the peak version of him than Holy was from his when they fought. Yes, Evander is 3-years older, but Tyson went 38-0 and 45-1 pre the Holyfield fights, ending his career 5-5. The best of these 5 wins was arguably vs a very average (relatively) Franz Botha, in his next fight after Holy, who outboxed Tyson for 4-rounds before getting 1-punch KO'd. The very notion of Botha even being competitive with the 86-88 version of Tyson, is absurd imo. The 218lbs Holyfield from Tyson 2 didn't quite have the fluidity or speed that the 205lbs version of him did from Bowe 1, but my word he was so much stronger, much more than the 13lbs weight increase alone could explain. That additional strength was demonstrably material to how effective he was vs Mike, imo.

Jeffries & Liston were clearly the best HWs in the world for at least 2-3 years, imo. I don't think I can say that, not "clearly", about Holy at any point.

Holyfield went 26-10-2 at HW, 26-11-1 on fair scorecards. Prior to Lewis 1, age 36, he was 18-3 at HW. His best wins were Tyson (past his peak), Bowe (lost their series), Holmes (42), Foreman (42), Moorer (drew their series), Mercer, Thomas (past peak), Dokes (past peak), Tillis, Cooper, Douglas (out of shape) and Rahman.

He lacked dominance, at no point proved himself the #1 HW in the world and whilst the names on his win resume are extraordinary, he didn't beat the peak versions of most of them.

That said, his HW career is extraordinary for a natural CW & with different, but yet still reasonable, criteria to mine, I could see a defendable argument for having him as high as #3 at HW all time. With my criteria, I'm comfortable #15 is about right, though I could see him above Dempsey.

 

Back end of the top ten and a guy that's a handful for anyone. His versatility, heart and toughness make him a nightmare opponent regardless of size.

 

I think people forget Greg how the fans perceived Holyfield before Bowe fights, now i wasn't born during this era but i've watched documentaries and done some research. And Holyfield was considered a bit of a paper champion at the time wasn't he ? he struggled vs Cooper who was a late replacement and considered fringe contender at that time. And then had competitive fights vs two old former greats Holmes, Foreman, who were in their 40s. Which didn't convince the public of Holyfield being apparently the best Heavyweight at that time.

The wins over Holmes, Foreman, do look a bit better now with hindsight to be fair. But i think the issue for me in regards to Holyfield is that he never really had the dominance of some of the other notable Heavyweight champions. And whilst he does have some stand out quality wins, Holyfield was a bit too up and down for me to rate him really high in all honesty.

I also don't rate Holyfield that highly H2H either as i posted above he wouldn't make my top 10 in that category.

 

I take this list as completely valid, because it was chosen by the members of this forum (3 years ago). Since then I can possibly see Wlad pushing Holyfield from 10th to 11th.

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He was seen by some as a blown up CW and many considered the best HW was in prison. His perception actually improved with his gutsy showing in Bowe 1.

As I said previously, I think he gets overrated as a HW and underrated p4p.

 

They were too competitive for me to hold against a far past it Holy in any way. That he went on to lose to Ruiz shortly after that is indicative of where he was in his career.

The Botha fight was almost two and half years after the first Holy fight and Tyson looked rusty after his suspension. He looked much better against Golota the following year. In fact he wouldn't lose for almost another four and a half years after Holy, and then it was against Lewis. This after Holy seemed to take his soul in their two fights. Going into them, Tyson had looked very good while Holy had not. Had you said back then that Holy was the one closer to his prime you'd be laughed out of the room

Yes, but outside that window they didn't do much. And Jeffries brazenly ducked his by far best challenger and Liston shamelessly quit against his, twice.

It's about what you emphasise.

 

I agree with this if you combine his Cruiserweight/Heavyweight achievements hes rates pretty highly P4P maybe top 30 ?

 

I completely agree Bokaj.

Aside from our views on where Tyson & Holy were relative to their peak versions when they fought, I suspect we don't differ greatly in our interpretations of Holy's and the other ATG HW's careers, but rather have different criteria. Which is fine & I certainly wouldn't claim mine is any more valid than yours.

 

Probably closer to #40 for me, but he's in that sort of range imo, DP.

 

He definitely suffers some from his best wins (in terms of name) being against guys who were past their best. I also think his popularity causes people to bump him up higher than he fairly should be.

He's in the running for #1 CW. He's likely top 10 P4P as well. HW? Eh.

 

Would be a top five guy imo except that he clearly did PEDs as "Evan Fields:, which knocks him just out of the top ten.