Where does Larry Holmes rank as a HW ATG

Top 5 Easily

 

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what does this prove? he beat a guy who had no heart and only had two decent wins against shot fighters.

 

Two reigns did it. Can't see any swarmer in history beating him. Only super tough or super skilled fighter are going to see the final bell with Foreman. ATG chin. ATG power. Incredible ring cutter. Underrated jab. Every punch in the book and more than few weird set ups. Foreman is a bad man. The only real question is stamina. But fair to say, historically, it's really hard to not get knocked out by George Foreman.

Also lets not play the weight game by bringing up Leonard. No heavyweight is anywhere near as skilled as Leonard technically. Lewis and Louis are the only ones even close.

 

Top 5. Can't see The Easton Assassin being ranked any lower.

 

I rate Holmes and Wlad Klitschko the same and both are up there with the best of them . His era was a little lacking but he never lost sight of being and remaining champion which shows his dedication to his craft . Shame Holmes was not born 10 years later I think he could possibly still be up there .

 

Holmes era had more overachievers, Wlad's had more underachievers.

 

3 chances to win in his second career. That is not exactly great when considering he beat Michael Moorer a lightheavyweight with a shaky chin. Foreman was great, but not too great. He was a limited guy a little, but if his opponent was there to be hit he would knock them out. Lewis? Again size advantages over smaller opponent.. What weight game am I playing? I mentioned Foreman did well and then did not do well. He did not do what Leonard could do beat all styles like Duran, Hearns, Hagler, Benitez. All around guy who had different ways to fight.

 

Ali in the 60s was; in fact Leonard himself admitted Ali was a huge influence on him. And I completely agree on Louis.

Last I checked, Lewis was a puncher before anything else, by far. No fighting resemblance to Ray whatsoever....though of course Lennox was a great fighter.

I guess I'm confused, apologies.

 

I have to add. Foreman has a career a little like Hearns in that they won big and lost big. I give Hearns more credit, I think he moved up and showed more versatile skills to beat bigger guys. Foreman was always the bigger guy. Hearns boxed and punched. It is a matter of opinion. I am not a huge heavyweight fan. I think they get more credit than they should. and Foreman never would have fought Lewis..

 

George would have had his hands full with Lennox. However, George also hit a lot harder than Oliver McCall.....it only takes one punch in a George fight, and Lennox did get hit a bit more than he should have.

One of the coolest things about George and Lennox would be the fact that they really were great punchers imo. I was so excited when Lewis first knocked out someone with his left hook...up until then he was to me only a right handed fighter. Right around that time his moves and jab got better and better, and he became a very great fighter (like George, Lennon didn't become super great until later in his career imo).

 

Reorder this list, add to it if required, where does Larry sit?
Marciano
Ali
Louis
Frazier
Lewis
Holmes
Liston
Johnson
Dempsey
Foreman
Tyson
Holyfield
VKlitschlo

 

Ray trained under Dundee. Perhaps by choice and not by coincidence Ali filtered into him. God surely gave him a bit of Ali's speed. But Ray was a far more versatile fighter than Ali.

P4P favors the smaller guy skill wise. A 220lber with Ray's ability and skills beats Ali senseless. A 220lb Ray never loses to Frazier. Smaller men are generally smoother, more coordinated and more skilled. Ali was IMO the most athletically gifted heavyweight. Ray had a wider arsenal, more fluidity with hooks and uppercuts and could play pressure fighter far better than Ali. He was just more overall skilled than Ali IMO.

Yes Lennox was a puncher. But an incredibly versatile puncher. He was a puncher because that was his gift, rather than speed. But Lennox could fight inside or out. Play jabber or fighter as well as any heavyweight. Unlike the rest of my Top 10 Lennox could box or fight equally well. A true rarity at heavyweight. If he was dead set on jabbing, you couldn't get near him. If you did get near him, you'd never see it coming.

 

I agree with so much of this. But Lewis really didn't seem to have much of a jab (or even a left hand) until much later in his career. For the most part the Lewis of the 90s wasn't an ATG, Holyfield was (with Bowe bringing up the rear...not by much).

Of course, if we're talking the latter part of LL's career he was easily one of the ATGs imo. I just can't get the sight of LL endlessly looking to land the right in the 90s, to the detriment of every other punch. I know Holmes heavily criticized him for that (especially for his jab, but hey it was Larry Holmes for cryn' out loud!); however, after awhile (when LL seem to unveil a whole new left hand) he rightfully shut up about it.

 

Steward Lewis is an ATG. Pre-steward wasn't.