Where does RJJ rank P4P?

:huh I'm not debating anything about Jones, just talking about the greatness of Froch and Pascal. When you going to post your top50 list so we can all have a laugh?

 

Great fighter. Good record. Between 50-100.

 

I think Jones' record is very comparable to Ray's.

Leonard's top wins: Hagler, Hearns, Benitez, Duran

Jones': Ruiz, Toney, Hill, Hopkins

Taking everything in consideration (perfomance, manner of win, size difference etc). I think they are quite close. And Jones' second tier of wins is also comparable to Leonard's.

The main difference would be that Leonard never was "smoked" in the way Jones been on several occassions.

 

Jones Jr was incredibly gifted but he didn't have enough defining fights for me. He spent too long looking good beating up limited opposition.

It's hard to say if he would make my Top 50. For talent yes, on opposition faced no.

 

No!

 

I don't think those top wins are close. Hopkins and Toney were possibly pre-prime (although I think prime Jones beats prime versions of these two), and Ruiz was kind of cherry picked and certainly not the best HVY out there. I view Ruiz as a bit of an abomination. A spoiler at best.

Personally Jones is 40-50 for me. I can accept an argument of 20 - 30 because he is a difficult one to pin down. Any higher is getting a bit carried away.

 

:thumbsup Very good post matey.

 

How in god's name are those victories comparable? :blood

 

I wouldnt say that. Skills are very subjective. A boxer may look great in terms of skills when he fights average opposition, when he steps up he may not look that great. Its important what you have done, not what you could have done :smoke

Not saying that skills dont count, but to me the opposition you faced is very important, it defines you as a fighter. When you proves the skills against top opposition, then everything is clear.

 

Hagler/Ruiz: Hagler is of course much greater p4p, but the size difference between him and Leonard is much, much, much smaller than between Jones and Ruiz. Jones also won with a much more substantial margin. If Leonard put on weight and scored a shut-out against a HW contender weighing around 200 lbs, I'd have that as even more impressive than his razor thin win over Hagler. And don't give me "Ruiz was cherry picked". So was Hagler. Leonard has even gone on record saying so.

Benitez/Toney: I'm extremely impressed by how Leonard largely outboxed and then stopped Benitez. But great as Benitez was, I don't think he was considered nr. 1 p4p at the time. Toney was. And that fight wasn't in the least competitive. Benitez at least had his moments and won rounds, Toney was never in the fight. The win over Toney is therefore slightly more impressive IMO.

Hearns/Hill: Hearns is of course the greater win. But the fact that Jones beat Hill in such a domineering fashion at least evens it out a bit. When all is said and done, the win over Hearns is more impressive, though.

Duran/Hopkins: This one is harder. Yes, Hopkins had yet a while to go before he reached his peak and Duran, at that time, was at least as good as peak Hopkins p4p. All true. But Jones was also a bit green (less than Hopkins, but still) and probably weight drained as well. Still he easily beat Hopkins while Leonard's "win" is thoroughly unsatisfying. He was doing well when Duran quit, but in all honesty "No Mas" was really about Duran losing rather than Leonard winnning.

So: Two slight plusses for Jones, one clear plus for Leonard, and one inconclusive. I'd say that's pretty even.

 

They are not. Not even close. Ruiz was a handpicked opponent for Christ Sakes! This is laughable.

 

Another way of looking at it is that some rate Hopkins above Hagler and Jones beat Hopkins easy with 1 hand. I'm not saying thats necessarily so but it shows they're comparable

I think I'd add Tarver and Lalonde to the comparison

 

top 35

honestly i don't think u can name 40 fighters with a better resume than Jones, Hopkins doesn't rank up there with Jones he'd be in the top 50 range.

 

Leonard hadn't fought for three years. He was a natural Welterweight but the fight was scheduled at 160lbs. Hagler hadn't lost for 11 years. Everything else is revisionist history.

James Toney was weighed drained. He would never come close to making the Super Middleweight limit again. Still a good win, perhaps the only arguable case here.

A much greater win. Eclipses the Hill victory to such a degree that I don't feel I need to expand on my reply.

Hopkins was green and was outclassed by a fighter who had not long come out of the Olympics and who was already a great fighter as a result of his physical gifts. A very good win all things considered, whereas Leonard was winning the Duran rematch handily before his opponent bowed out. Of course beating Duran is infinitely superior to beating a green Hopkins.

No.