Where Does Sonny Liston Rank As An ATG Heavyweight?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by PetethePrince, Jun 21, 2009.


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  1. PetethePrince

    PetethePrince Slick & Redheaded Full Member

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    People have their own criteria in determining what makes the greatest heavyweight champions. I don't weigh H2H matches speculative in my criteria as I'd make an entirely different list for the best heavyweights in terms of H2H. My criteria is accomplishments/achievements (Mostly entirely as a heavyweight), legacy (This is where some popular opinion comes in. How they're remember, longevity, etc), competition (This is the most important category next to achievements), and skills/abilities as a fighter (What they did well. They're pros, ability, skills -- what they did bad, weaknesses, etc).

    Anyway, where do you guys rank Liston as an ATG heavyweight? I have trouble ranking him because of the whole cloud with the 2 Ali fights. I feel he belongs in the top 10, but I don't have him there currently. Liston had a great chin which we saw against Cleveland Williams, he had arguably the best left jab in heavyweight history (Telephone jab, only rivaled by Holmes and Louis) and a devastating overhand right (Only rivaled by Marciano & Baer). The man was powerful and incredibly intimidating. Only has 3 loses on his resume and one was well past his prime against Martin where he took a devastating right. Enough with the rambling. Where does Liston place on your ATG heavyweight list? Top 10? Top 5? Outside top 10?
     
    PetethePrince, Jun 21, 2009
    PetethePrince, Jun 21, 2009
    #1
  2. Spirit Fearon

    Spirit Fearon Member Full Member

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    Top 5 for me.
     
    Spirit Fearon, Jun 21, 2009
    Spirit Fearon, Jun 21, 2009
    #2
  3. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    He ranks # 3 on my list. Cleaned out his division pre title, Very Dominant against top opposition, Cleaned out his era ducking no one, Freak of Nature Physically along with Terrific Boxing Skills, ATG two fisted power, and a ATG left Jab.

    If your list goes by accomplishments, what liston accomplished in his own era exceeds what many heavyweight champions did in theres.
     
    SuzieQ49, Jun 21, 2009
    SuzieQ49, Jun 21, 2009
    #3
  4. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I have him at 3 or 4.
     
    McGrain, Jun 21, 2009
    McGrain, Jun 21, 2009
    #4
  5. BUDW

    BUDW Boxing Addict Full Member

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    What about him was a freak of nature?
     
    BUDW, Jun 21, 2009
    BUDW, Jun 21, 2009
    #5
  6. ChrisPontius

    ChrisPontius March 8th, 1971 Full Member

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    Top10 for me. Hard to assess. He was rather dominant (only missed a fight with the #2 Johansson, but not by his own fault) and has several good wins, most notably over Patterson in the first round. On the other hand, i think he's very slow for a man who is not far over 200lbs and barely over six feet, and the Clay fights taint his legacy somewhat. Still, plenty of positives to keep him in the top10.
     
    ChrisPontius, Jun 21, 2009
    ChrisPontius, Jun 21, 2009
    #6
  7. BUDW

    BUDW Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Top 10
     
    BUDW, Jun 21, 2009
    BUDW, Jun 21, 2009
    #7
  8. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I'd be interested to know who you think is clearly above him.
     
    McGrain, Jun 21, 2009
    McGrain, Jun 21, 2009
    #8
  9. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    The fact he was only 6'1" tall at the most yet had an 84" reach and 15" fists. Those are GIANT numbers compared to his height.
     
    SuzieQ49, Jun 21, 2009
    SuzieQ49, Jun 21, 2009
    #9
  10. dezbeast

    dezbeast Active Member Full Member

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    If I go by you're criteria I'd put him in between 10 and 15.
     
    dezbeast, Jun 21, 2009
    dezbeast, Jun 21, 2009
    #10
  11. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Johansson refused to fight Liston. Besides there is no evidence johansson was any better than fighters like Folley and Williams. Realistically, Johnasson wouldnt have made it out of the 2nd round vs Liston had the fight come off.
     
    SuzieQ49, Jun 21, 2009
    SuzieQ49, Jun 21, 2009
    #11
  12. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I've read that Johansson was up for doing it in Sweden.
     
    McGrain, Jun 21, 2009
    McGrain, Jun 21, 2009
    #12
  13. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Johansson talked alot of trash to european reporters...but when Liston challenged him...johnansson was nowhere to be found. Ingemar was all bite no bark when it came to liston, he did not want the fight. ingo dilly dallied around it like he wanted the fight to come off, but everyone knew the truth. Ingo claimed he wanted to take on liston in 1962((coincidently not in america)) , and a bout was arranged for Sweden in fall of 1962....but After Liston knocked out floyd in 1 round, suddenly ingemar was no longer interested.

    Heres a nice little article about a possible Archie Moore vs Ingemar johnansson fight

    http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...DAAAAIBAJ&pg=6868,5766268&dq=liston+johansson
     
    SuzieQ49, Jun 21, 2009
    SuzieQ49, Jun 21, 2009
    #13
  14. PetethePrince

    PetethePrince Slick & Redheaded Full Member

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    I'm not very fickle but I had to be honest with myself. Liston was a force to be reckoned with. It's the damn fights with Ali (Then Clay) which make things tough to judge. It seemed he was a train wreck for the other punchers and even counter punchers in the division. But Liston never faced a truly elusive and fast-moving fighter that might've been able to disrupt. I know Ali did it and many others probably wouldn't have. Liston's competition doesn't truly overly impress me but he did clock a lot of great fighters and got a fight with Patterson that was long overdue. It's hard to see where he belongs next to Holmes, Dempsey, Johnson, and even Tyson. I guess a part of me didn't want to find a place for him because that would knock off a beloved fighter of mine... Holyfield :-((

    At this point he's in my top 10 so I've been convinced. However, at the most I can only rank him #6... I've got to come to grips with what spot that would be.

    I've read a lot of your post and I agree with a lot of what you've said. You seem to really know your stuff and seem like a good analysis of the sport. Out of curoisity how does your top 10 look (Not in terms of H2H)?
     
    PetethePrince, Jun 21, 2009
    PetethePrince, Jun 21, 2009
    #14
  15. ChrisPontius

    ChrisPontius March 8th, 1971 Full Member

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    Ali
    Louis
    Lewis
    Marciano
    Holmes
    Frazier

    Those are the ones that i think are CLEARLY above him.

    Others that might rank a bit higher: Holyfield, Foreman, Johnson and Tyson. So, that makes him top10. I know you'll disagree on Holyfield, but insert your criticism and i will refute it so badly that you will commit suicide by eating haggis-all-you-can in a tent in the living room.
     
    ChrisPontius, Jun 21, 2009
    ChrisPontius, Jun 21, 2009
    #15
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