Where Does Sonny Liston Rank As An ATG Heavyweight?

Well, saying that he still blows out the early 60's Patterson in 1969 is your point of view. The only ranked contender he fought post-Clay, was Martin, and while he was competitive, he still ended up being knocked out cold, so i would question his ability to beat someone of Patterson's level, let alone that easy. It's not like Martin was unbeatable.

The examples you gave - Langford losing focus, Johnon after beating Jeffries, Frazier after beating the Louisville Lip - they all went out while giving their absolute best inside the ring. Liston surrendered rather easily, at least once, perhaps twice.


Well, let me formulate this point differently.

I think we can agree that Ali would've always beaten Liston, lucky punch aside. So, given this knowledge, how much does it matter whether Sonny was declining? The point is that even if he was losing (and it was fairly even on the cards, even though that is deceptive), he just gave up like it was nothing after 6 fairly light rounds against a non-pressuring, light hitting opponent.

The extend to which he had declined is up for debate, the easiness with which he surrendered the heavyweight championship of the world is not. And i have trouble ranking someone with a grand total of one title defence in the top5.

 

I think you have to factor in Liston's age ,we really dont know how old he was.
The most important thing for me ,with Liston ,going in to his second title defence ,is that he had around 6 minutes of actual ring combat in 3 years, he then takes on the best Hvy of all time [imo] and is competitve for most of the fight.
Prior to the Ali fight Liston had kod Floyd twice in 1 rd, previous to that he had kod Westphal in 1 rd,He was not in top shape ,complacent ,thought the result was a foregone conclusion, and paid the price,how many times has this happened in boxing?
History repeats itself very consistantly in boxing,and it happened here.

 

Very nice points mcvey. Very nice.

 

Not True Pontius. According to HHscuop, Henry Clark was rated # 7 in the monthly RING ratings when Liston knocked him out.



There has been alot said so I will comment on the rest later

 

Larry Merchant said this back in 1982.....I dont care what you say about him, too me larry merchant is a very knowledgable man and a reliable source...especially back then.

No not at all...I admit he was still a dangerous fighter, but he was defintley past his prime

Liston was actually past his prime by the 2nd patterson fight in 1963.....no one realized it because he blew out patterson so fast...but patterson was made for him and listons aging factors didnt even need to come into play the fight ended so quick....Liston was getting extremley rusty boxing only 2 round in 3 years during the patterson fights, he was getting soft, became an alchoholic, and he was getting old.

 

Seems Mcvey and Mcgrain did a good job so i dont need to comment on the other points....Im just curious why does everyone keep harping on liston about Ali fight? How many other heavyweigth champions ages between 32-34 coming off only 2 rounds of boxing in 3 years would be capable of beating muhamad ali? I would say ZERO. So why hold this against liston so much?

 

I'm a big fan of Merchant, but i'm not sure how reliable a source he is.


For instance, in a documentary, he also said that he genuinely believed Liston was knocked out in the rematch. I'm sure you disagree with him there. By the way, there are other highly regarded people who hold the same believe. Although i'm not 100% certain, i believe Old Fogey also believed this.

Are you suggesting that Johnson quit against Willard? That Langford quit against who?

I agree it's a slippery slope, and it's not like i think he's automatically disqualified from the top5 because of his short reign. However, IF Ali really was the only obstacle in the way, then at least he would've beaten other ranked contenders afterwards? And indeed, the way in which he gave up bothers me.

According to the Boxing Register, he wasn't.

 

I'm not sure Sonny would be in my top-5, but I definitely feel a case can be made for him being rated so highly!

Definitely in the top-10 of all time without any doubt imo!

 

I have Clark at #9 in Ring, #11 in Boxing Illustrated. Sorry Chris P, but as BI ratings were nearly always superior you can argue he "wasn't top 10".

 

# 9 in the RING means he was rated in the top 10, so pontius was mistaken. I am going to double check to see if Henry's Ring issue had him at 7 or 9, but i am 100% sure clark was top 10 in the monthly issue. 9 or 7 seems about right.

 

No sign of Liston in the ratings before the Clark fight. He's rated top 10 in BI. A lot of 'Ring' disdain towards Sonny I generally thought. BI said he'd beat Patterson as early as late 1958.

 

Ya Ring most likely moved him back into the top 10 after his knockout of the top 10 rated Clark. RING did not like liston because of the Ali fights, no one wanted him in the WBA elimination tournament..he would have done well.

 

Because he shockingly and embarrassingly QUIT, TWICE.

How many of the great HW champs have a history of giving up anywhere like that? How many of them were so utterly indifferent to holding on to their title, or avenging a loss?