Where Does Sonny Liston Rank As An ATG Heavyweight?

Langford quit against Fred Fulton, but no, I wasn't talking about quiting - I believe the phrase you used was "giving their best in the ring"? I thought that's what they were talking about. You could argue that Johnson and Langford did their best against who they decided to fight (in Johnson's case) and inspite of the fact that they were not training properly (in Langford's case) but I don't know that that would be entirely correct. The point would be that there were more "give" in the men overall rather than had directly quit in the ring.

You mean, "why didn't Liston fight other top contenders after Ali"? Liston was something of a person non grata as far as the governing bodies and top promoters. He's still probably the only defeated champion who was stripped of his liscence for losing...it was extremely difficult to get fights, he had no manager of note (And nobody looking to touch him with the The Grey's people hovering). When he was re-liscenced to fight in the US he was obviously very easy to duck.

I know nothing about Ring rankings etc., but I do know that Clarke was supposed to be an eliminator for an eliminator and I have footage (might be on yoututbe) of him discussing his coming title run in the ring right after the fight. I think he was being lined up to fight Quarry, Sonny said, "that boy...i've forgotten his name [is reminded]...Jerry Quarry said he would fight me." "Well, if you win that one Sonny you're right back in the title race"

Fight never materialised. I suppose your position will be that Sonny may have ducked Jerry, but that doesn't seem likely to me. However, I have no proof and so will accept the theoretical possibility in advance.

But I do insist that Sonny had terrible trouble making fights, little in the way of representation, was certainly collecting pay from promoters in person, and was the easiest fighter in the world to duck.

 

What's wrong with revisionism? Your point seems to be that because Liston was seen as unbeateable before the Ali fight we should hold that as true - even though he was immediatly beaten.

 

There's the perception of the press at the time, but that can be incorrect.

For example, biographers seem satisfied of Sonny's drinking at this time. It seems to have been a secret, or mostly secret, to the press.

The press have Sonny as unbeateable before the Ali fight. Ali beat him.

So we can embark on revisionism based upon the concrete facts or our nearest perception of them.

 

We have his filmed performance against Ali shortly after the Patterson fight, some fights after the Ali fight where he fails to live up to the standards he set before the Patterson fights, his inactivity leading up to the Ali fight, his age, some sources which you are free to investigate which have Liston returning to the bottle and less dedicated in training after Patterson I, perhaps returning to serious training for Ali II.

 

I didn't say, at any point that they did. In the original point which we were discussing, you didn't say anythign about quitting either.

Well he boxed very well against Clarke, showed excellent generalship, but looked a good deal slower. Liston certainly wasn't at the top of the mountain when he fought Clarke or Martin, and I didn't say at any point that he was. You were the one trying to say Liston was close to the top of his game later in his career (Ali I), I was the one saying he was already past his best, this 1-1 against ranked contenders in his final 20 months as a pro seems like something that was bound to happen in my eyes.

You seem to be inferring I have said things that I haven't or have adopted positions that I haven't.

I didn't say at any point that it was anyone elses fault; you seemed to be asking me why he didn't match top contenders after Ali and I offered you an explanation which you seem to have accepted. Liston's path may have been marked out for him, is all I would say about this point of blame.

Just as an aside, you yourself have suggested the ko may have been legit on this board, and the dive was certainly never proven.

Or just "top 10" if you prefer.