Where Does Sonny Liston Rank As An ATG Heavyweight?

Hey, maybe it was MIXED doubles!!!

 

LOL liston used to have huge orgy's with whores and invite his sparring partners to get in on it...wasnt it Foneda who said Liston had like a 15" dick? LMAO

 

I think we have arrived at the crux of the Liston-mania in these parts.

 

Yep, and old Patterson.

And how old were some of these guys? Patterson and Folley were both into their '30s as well, and Cooper was around 30 and had definitely been through the mill.

And all of them were facing the additional uphill battle of trying to take a champion's title away. They weren't fighting to keep a title that they already held.

 

I wouldn't call the first Liston fight "easy" for Ali even though it is made out to be that way sometimes.

Lets not forget that Ali himself was about to quit if not for Angelo Dundee convincing him to continue on.

 

Well if you read some of the responses, you'd think rigor mortis had nearly occured by the time Liston fought Clay, he was that old, shot, etc.

 

Funny how much convincing some of you need when its a 30 something Liston who has 6 minutes of ringtime under his belt in 3 years.
Yet a 29 year old Frazier is allready damaged beyond repair , before he faces his first real big puncher in Foreman.

 

Mcvey, as much as i like Frazier, you know i'll be the first to admit that Foreman would've always annihilated him.

 

Yes I have to give you that:good
Now if I can work on you regarding Dempsey and Johnson-------

 

I'm scratching my head as to what the original point was, but i believe it was about giving their best.

I think things got a bit confused. Someone stated that Liston would've reigned until '69 if not for Clay. So, my response was that Liston did not convincingly prove to be able to beat top level opponents, nevermind on a consistent basis.

See the comment above.:good

I think Johnson was a great fighter, but his opponents were very primitive in their skillset, and the rules of boxing were so much different back then that it's hard to judge.

 

No one really knew for sure how old Charles " Sonny " Liston was. At the time of the Clay fight, he was reported as being 32 years of age, but some speculated that due to spotty record keeping at the time of his birth, Liston may have been as old as 35. In either case, we have to take his age with a grain of salt, and can't weigh it too heavily into the equation.

Hind site tells us that Cassius Marcellus Clay went on to being recognized in many circles as the greatest heavyweight of all time, and to even those who do not credit him as being such, commonly have him in their top 3. At the time Clay fought Liston however, he had just turned 22 years of age, was not completely filled out physically, had a total of 19 pro fights, and one of his biggest and most recent wins was over Henry Cooper who decked him in his last bout. Clay was made a serious underdog for good reason, and frankly I think he was still a few years away from becoming the man who most of us would know as the greatest.

There is a lot of concern for Liston's level of activity going into the Clay fight. He had indeed fought only twice inside of three years. However, in the 8 months leading up to the Clay fight, both men had fought once - Clay defeated Henry Cooper 8 moths earlier in June of 1963, while Liston had beaten Patterson in July of the same year. Clay was actually further removed from his last bout than Liston was, and needless to say was fighting a far lesser opponent whom he looked far less impressive against..

How do I rate Sonny Liston? I suppose he's one of those fighters who you can rate all over the place, depending on what kind of criteria is most pertinent to the individual. Some people rate him very high on the basis that he defeated the very best contenders of his time frame, prior to taking the crown, while the incumbent champion was facing softer foes. While I give a very high degree of merit to this effort on Liston's part, I'm not sure how high I can rate a man soley on the basis that he " earned his title shot. " His seat on the thrown was very short lived, and his only title defense came against the very same man whom he already demolished, and in all likelihood was taylor made for him.. As mentioned earlier, he was dethroned by a 22 year old man with 19 pro fights and who was decked by a lesser opponent in his last fight. As great as this young man would later become, I don't think that he had reached his peak, and with the fight basically being a near even contest, the champion had elected to resign himself..

Upon losing his title and failing in the rematch, Liston took a year off before going on to spending a year in Sweden and working under the promotional umbrella of former champion Ingemar Johannsen. After beating a few journeyman, he returned home and continued fighting until his last match against Chuck Wepner in 1970. In total, Liston won a respectable 15 of 16 bouts after losing his crown. He did not however manage to ever again prove himself as a force in the world picture and lost to the only ranked contender he faced during his comeback.

Overall, I rate Liston somewhere between 8-10 on an average day by virtue of the fact that he convincingly defeated a man who I have rated in my top 15, along with a number of solid contenders during his journey towards the title. His stay at the top was very short however, and for that reason a higher rating is difficult to award.

 

Not true. Henry Clark was rated # 9 in the world by RING magazine when Liston knocked him out

 

Please Pontius....Without Ali, who beats Liston 1964-1968?

 

This question was not intended for me, but I think I'll answer it if you don't mind.

On paper? Nobody... In actuality? It's highly debatable. Liston was well past it during the late 60's. In 1965, Muhammad Ali may have been the only fighter who could have beaten Liston. But, by 1968 he was getting pretty close to shot, and men like Jimmy Ellis, Buster Mathis, Jerry Quarry and Joe Frazier were starting to stir things up.

Can I guarantee that any of these men would have beaten a declining Liston? No, I can't... Would they have been a formidable test for him? Well, considering that Liston was starting to have trouble finishing journeyman and would ultimately lose to Leotis Martin in 1969, then I don't think it's entirely out of the question....

 

Fair enough, but beating a man who's ranking was #9, had a record of 15-3-2-2, and had only stopped two of his 15 victoms, did not make him a serious part of the world scene.

I will also change my position from a prior response on another post by saying that in 1968, I would have seriously made Jimmy Ellis a huge favorite to beat him. Ellis was actively beating top contenders, and was a boxer type who I think would have been a major obstacle for Liston.. Of course, Sonny would have had a puncher's chance, but this was not enough to deem him as the favorite...