Where does Stanley Ketchel rate as a puncher all time

It's hard to tell with the old film, but if the knock down was fake why did Johnson immediately go for the kill as if enraged? Was the kayo punch fake, too?

Edit. My mistake, I meant to ask a previous poster!

 

The whole point, as surmised by everyone, was to do something dramatic in order to sell the films. Can you imagine if the film was twenty rounds of Johnson playing with Ketchel like a cat does a dead mouse to a decision? It would have gotten horrible press and nobody would have wanted to sit through it. As it happened people went to the films especially because the knockdown looked fake. They wanted to see for themselves if it was real or not. It was even promoted that way.

 

This is exactly what the film shows. Everyone can see it on youtube nowdays so there should be no argument.

 

Moore has 50 kos at or around middleweight 2 more than Ketchel.I said that entitles him to be in this discussion.

I never at any time said Moore is the top puncher of all time at160lbs
You have a recurring habit of "adjusting" others posts to fit your own criteria.
You said Ketchel has Kos over :
Billy Papke 25-1-4
Ketchel's best win and he only managed it once in three fights!

Hugo Kelly 30-7-20
Ketchel kod him in3 rds, less than a year later Papke kod him in 1.5minutes of rd 1.


Jack Sullivan 20-3-13
Ketchel ko'd him in 20rds, in his next fight Sullivan was kod in13 rds by 3-2-4 Terry Mustain!

Jack O Brien 91-6-14
O Brien had 8 more fights after Ketchel stopped him, winning just 3, he was past prime.

These according to you are Ketchel's impressive wins.


I countered these on Moore's behalf with:
Ron Richards 85-19-7
Richards beat Fred Henneberry, Gus Lesnevich, Ray Actis
.Alabama Kid,Gorilla Jones, Carmen Barth.

Lloyd Marshall 55-12-3

Marshall beat ,well just about everybody:
Teddy Randolph,Holman Williams,Joey Maxim,Jake Lamotta motta,Curtis Sheppard,Nate Bolden,Charley Burley,Ezzard Charles,Jack Chase,Babe Risko,Ken Overlin,Lou Brouillard,Teddy Yarosz,Anton Cristoforidis
This ko win by Moore tops anything Ketchel ever did around 160lbs!

Fred Henneberry 60-16-6
Henneberry beat Ginger Sadd,Ken Overlin,RonRichards,Dave Shade ,drew with Georgie Abrams.



Shorty Hogue 52-10-3
Hogue beat Eddie Booker Bobby Pacho,Lloyd Marshall! Archie Moore x2! Johnny Romero.

NOW TELL ME KETCHEL'S WIN OVER A PAST PRIME
JACK O BRIEN TOPS THAT LOT!

 

I would lean towards scenario 2.

That would explain why Johnson went after Ketchel so savagely.

 

How about Ketchel tried to double cross Johnson by firing that right but Johnson saw it coming and reacted accordingly to sensationalise the fight films, faking the KD then ,because he was p*ssed at the attempted doublecross that had gone wrong, getting up and koing Ketchel?
This seems as plausible as anything to me. The film shows Johnson beginning to fall before the punch lands, how do you explain that otherwise?

 

Ketchels punch was so hard it bend space and time so it appeared as if Johnson was falling down before being hit.

 

What pure unadulterated nonsense.

The last time I can see Moore weighing 160 or less was in November 43 against Jack Chase, in his 68th fight out of 209. He had weighed in above 160 on plenty of occasions even before that. I simply can't be bothered to count exactly how many fights Moore had at 160 or less, but for the sake of argument I'm going to say 60. That leaves 149 fights above the weight. So it stands to reason he would score more KO's above 160 rather than below it.

But only an idiot would claim those 50 KO's at 160 and under which more than stack up against Ketchel's Middleweight KO's shouldn't be taken into account.

You really ought to learn the golden rule of holes.:rofl:rofl

 

Moore,scaling162lbs ko'd Lloyd Marshall weighing166.5lbs.

I don't have to tell you about Marshall's wins up to that time, but I listed the better ones for Suze.

I maintain this one win alone equals any by Ketchel at or near 160lbs.

 

His best ko at or near the weight [162lbs], was over 166.5lbs Lloyd Marshall.:good

 

Were the bruises and cuts part of the " Fake too ". Why KO Ketchel that badly? ,It essentiality ruins any re-match. Johnson loved money.

Johnson’s style was cat and mouse when he had his man, and was very cautious in many fights. He was very disrespectful to other fighters in the ring and took pleasure when the things were going his way.

Johnson had a number of fights where he did very little. Were they fixes too?

No fix here, only a story of one to save face was released after Ketchel’s death.

Regarding the KO, Johnson went down from a shot that landed to the top of the head. He then rolled over, braced himself to get up, lost his balance ( A sign of a buzzed fighter ) then fell down as he connected.

He then grabbed the ropes, which is something fighters do when they are buzzed. The news link I posted said Johnson was still dazed from the shot Ketchel landed. The source was primary.

 

The film is clear. New sources don't matter when the film is that clear. We can watch the fight over and over, something the reporters did not do. Johnson carried Ketchel, literally held him up at times. It can be seen. Don't have to rely on "stories". Johnson started to fall before the Ketchel punch in the 12th landed, and it barely landed, it was telegraphed obvious, so Johnson took an opportunity to dive. Yes, his reason was almost certainly to create drama because for whatever reason he chose to end the fight then and there.

 

Well I didn't want to be too hard on poor old Stanley, but it is a nonsense to claim that Moore's KO's around 160 don't compare to Ketchel's, and / or that Archie is ONLY credited as a puncher at 175 and above.

He was either a puncher, or he wasn't, there can't be any " yeah but's "