Where does the term "pound for pound" come from?

Dark Sider · Jul 29, 2009

I read somewhere it refers to Ray Robinson beating guys above his weight class, and the theoretical list started from there.

Any answers?

Thread Stealer · Jul 29, 2009

The popular myth is that the term was created for Ray Robinson, but Ray probably just popularized the term more. Other fighters before him like Canzoneri and even Fitzsimmons way before him were referred to as the best pound-for-pound.

Thread Stealer · Jul 29, 2009

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/showthread.php?t=72645

Sam Dixon said: ↑

"Nineteen hundred and seventeen in it's big harvest, collected many a fighting man. But in taking Bob Fitzsimmons and Frank Gotch the closing year lifted two of the greatest entities boxing and wrestling have ever known. Fitz was far and away the best fighting man, pound for pound, the game ever produced. Pound for pound he never had his equal. He was the first to hear the mystic trumpeteer..." - Grantland Rice in his 'Sportlights' column on Jan 1st, 1918, and taken from the Lima Daily News in Ohio

I've seen "pound for pound" references before that, as well, but speaking more of a specific talent or something like that, and not neccessary being called the best fighter overall. One such example;

"Pound for pound, I believe Jeffries to be the most dangerous, the most ragged fighter the world has ever known. This does not mean with certainty that he will win on Monday next, for the human eye can see nothing beyond the surface, nothing but the material, and no man knows, not even Jeffries himself." - July 1st, 1910, Reno Evening Gazette

There were numerous "pound for pound" references well before Robinson, and in addition to Fitzsimmons, I've seen quite a few and have different quotes of fighters being referenced as the best in the business on a pound for pound basis...Mickey Walker, Tony Canzoneri, Jimmy McLarnin, Kid Chocolate, Barney Ross, Henry Armstrong, etc., etc.
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Sam Dixon said: ↑

It's entirely possible and maybe even likely that some of those fighters were referenced as such, Mendoza, as the "pound for pound" term itself was around in at least the early to mid 1800's and was commonly used when comparing food products and other goods. It's not beyond the realm of possibility that the fighters of the day were referenced with the term attached to their names, whether it be in print or in conversation.

But bringing it ahead from the 1800's to the next century, here's a few more references with the term (and indication that they were the best) for some of the fighters I named earlier (just one or two references each, although each had more than that), and all were before Robinson's time;

"Fighters and boxers rarely arrive in one human system. Good fighters are rarely good boxers, and good boxers are not always good fighters. The best combination of both trades now around the offing is Mickey Walker, welterweight champion, and the best man, pound for pound, in the business. Mickey can box and Mickey can fight. He has speed, power, skill, the punch and scrappy instinct. He can give and take..." - Oct 28th, 1924, Galveston Daily News

"A year ago they were acclaiming Mickey Walker, then welterweight champion, as the greatest fighter, pound for pound, of all of them, not barring even Jack Dempsey." - July 1st, 1926, AP report from Lima News, Wisconsin Daily Tribune, etc.

"Pound for pound, Kid Chocolate appears to be the best and most attractive fighter in the ring these days." - July 13th, 1930, John Kieran of the NY Times

"There are many who believe that Kid Chocolate, pound for pound, is the best fighter in the ring today." - Aug 7th, 1930, John Kieran of the NY Times

"The venerable adage that a good big man can beat a good little man will be put to the test once more when Jimmy McLarnin, conceded to be the uncrowned welterweight champion and the best fighter in the game, pound for pound, meets Al Singer, sovereign of the lightweight realm in a ten round bout at Yankee Stadium tonight." - Sept 11th, 1930, Oakland Tribune

"Tony Canzoneri is the greatest fighter, pound for pound, who ever stepped into ring shoes." - Mar 13th, 1933, Albert Kane of the Hartford Courant

"Even those of us who picked Ambers to win easily, and all of us did, were yelling for Canzoneri from the start. There's something about the little sawed-off fellow that gets you. maybe it's the fact that for 10 years he's been, pound for pound, the best fighter in the business." - May 11th, 1935, Urbana Daily Courier

"Henry Armstrong, Los Angeles Negro, recognized universally as world's featherweight champion and rated outstanding fighter in the country today, pound for pound, meets Pete DeGrasse, Mohawk Indian from the Canadian border, Tuesday night." - Apr 4th, 1937, LA Times

"With a featherweight championship fight coming up, every follower of the fancy seems to be talking about Hurry-Up Henry Armstrong, the coffee-colored clouter from East St.Louis. They say that Hurry-Up Henry, pound for pound, is the best fighter in the world." - Oct 29th, 1937, John Kieran of the NY Times
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Senya13 said: ↑

Philadelphia Inquirer, June 12, 1899

"If a great fistic luminary rose on Friday night, a great one set. Taking him pound for pound, Bob Fitzsimmons was the greatest fighter that ever stepped into a ring, Tom Sayers not forgotten."
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Dark Sider · Jul 29, 2009

thanks guys

Dark Sider · Jul 29, 2009

ttt

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Where does the term "pound for pound" come from?

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